Who cares about that. Tell us about the red/black Zune!!!

http://www.zunited.net/News/zune-news/general/zunes-with-all-black-backs.html

Having seen first hand the impact of Microsoft's close times with copyright protection with Media Center, I got concerned when I just saw this on the NY Times.  Thanks for the quick response to set the record straight.

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/05/07/microsoft-may-build-a-copyright-cop-into-every-zune/?ref=technology

Hi, Cesar. It's been many months (or more?) since I last posted, but I still follow your blog.  :-)

The quote in the NY Times that concerns me is this:

"Second, Apple refused to cooperate with NBC on building filters into its iPod player to remove pirated movies and videos.

Microsoft, by contrast, will accept NBC’s pricing scheme and will work with it to try to develop a copyright “cop” to be installed on its devices."

I have no problem with the pricing scheme. But the article clearly states that Microsoft will work with NBC to try to develop a copyright "cop" to be installed on its devices. (Presumably the Zune and the XBox, which are the only relevant devices that Microsoft produces -- Windows Vista is not a "device.")

So is the article factually incorrect? Or is NBC misunderstanding the deal with Microsoft, and Microsoft got the best of them?

Link to NY Times article:

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/05/07/microsoft-may-build-a-copyright-cop-into-every-zune/

I'm usually not into tin-foil hat conspiracy theories, but I wonder if news of this "Copyright Cop" was an attempt to put a damper on a very successful release of the 2.5 Zune software and firmware.

The upgrade was comprehensive and addressed a significant majority of the issues that some of us had with the earlier 2.x versions.  Software, firmware, and social website have been rock solid (from my point of view).

As the unofficial "official spokesman for downgrading to 1.x" I can wholeheartedly recommend the 2.5 to all of my fellow 1.x holdouts.  

Congratulations to the Zune Team for a release that all involved can be proud of.

BJ! great to hear from you. It's important to note that the posting in the times simply speculated what we might do – and I am setting the record straight in stating clearly that we have no plans to add content blocking features in Zune.

Willys aka sracer...in my best SJ personalization...

Zune Marketplace 2.5 is better than iTunes.

Are you drunk ?

I don't believe you. Microsoft notoriously sides with content publishers and bends to their will.

That's good to hear, Cesar. It would be a horrible precedent not only for consumers but device makers like yourself.

Someone on the Zune team should contact NY Times writer Saul Hansell ASAP, and update him on the facts. Ask him to correct the story (or at least the phrasing in that section), because this issue -- and the negative publicity in the blogosphere -- is not going to die down anytime soon as long as a mainstream outlet like the NY Times can be used as a source.

Saul Hansell's NY Times Page:

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/author/shansell/

Email address for feedback:

BitsFeedback@nytimes.com

For the record, as soon as I saw this story, I *knew* you would already have a post up about it, and you didn't disappoint. I'm continually impressed by your direct interaction with the user community through this blog.

Thanks Cesar. This is a great resource to help clear up the innuendo and rumor that is always floating around.  Keep up the great work.  

Gizmodo just picked this up, and I have to say, you guys are screwed.  Even if there is nothing planned, Microsoft still has no right to even be considering this.  I purchased my Zune, and what I put on it is my business.  Microsoft has no right policing something they do not own.  The day I hear more information is the day I (and more than likely my friends, who have bought Zunes due to my recommendation) will no longer be Microsoft customers.

The NY Times quotes the President of digital distribution for NBC. As a content provider for the Zune, it's obvious Mr Perrette is heavily involved in any deal making with microsoft. No offense to Cesar, but he is a marketing guy. He's not going to be involved at the high level information Mr. Perrette is speaking of. Of course Cesar has to say this, he's trying to keep the zune sales moving. This story has effectively killed any momentum the zune has mustered.

Cesar,

Are you saying that Microsoft will never implement this type of thing in the Zune device or Zune software, or simply that there are no plans to do so at the present?

Those are two very different things and I thing Microsoft needs to be very clear on this. Microsoft has already caved in and agreed to pay Universal Music Group $1 for each Zune sold, and if Microsoft is perceived as continually playing into the hands of the media companies, they have  a big problem on their hands.

So which is it? No plans at the present, or a commitment to never do anything like this?

Just another unwanted naill in the coffin.  You guys need to communicate FAR BETTER internaly and get your stories straight.

Why would they even think of a restrictiong like this?

Please just get things confirmed and provide a speedy retraction from the OFFICIAL SOURCE, be it Microsoft or NBC.

Cesar,

Can Rob comment on this speculation at all?

First off, let me say I LOVE the new spring update. There were so many issues with the previous version that I dealed with but was not truly satisfied. With that said, it should be more clearly stated that there this copyright "cop" will NEVER be implemented into any of the Zune devices/software. It should be said by somebody higher up too (no offense). If there is even a slight chance of this happening I will never be buying a Zune product again. I love my Zune and boast about it every chance I get and I don't want this to ever happen. I read your blog updates daily and we the community deserve a more clear answer on this, it should not be considered at all.

Dude, Cesar, you guys gotta get this cleared up for every blog out there. This isnt good press at all man. The sooner the better right?

Wait a minute.

I am the power.

for those who haven't seen it, chekc this out: http://www.news.com/8301-13860_3-9938650-56.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20

LOL ... I just returned to post that link myself, Cesar. Once again, I should have expected that you'd beat me to it. :-)

For the record, I find Microsoft's (and Cesar's) position on this to be entirely credible. The primary sticking point for NBC vs. iTunes was the refusal of iTunes to allow variable pricing. Everything else (like the proposed "copyright cop") was much less important to NBC in comparison. (At the very least, the other issues weren't dealbreakers.)

Microsoft agreed to allow variable pricing, and NBC agreed to sell their shows in the Zune Marketplace. Pretty straightforward, really. As a bonus, it also serves both company's interests (Microsoft and NBC) in weakening Apple's overwhelming marketshare and influence in the digital media downloads business.

Hi. Saul Hansell here of the New York Times.

As some other commenters have noted, I posted an item on this to the Bits blog this morning that got some notice.

I added this to the end of the post:

UPDATE

In the Zune Insider Blog, Cesar Menendez, a member Microsoft’s Zune team, refers to this post, and the blog discussion it prompted. He writes:

   We have no plans or commitments to implement any new type of content filtering in the Zune devices as part of our content distribution deal with NBC.

It’s worth noting that Mr. Perrette told me that Microsoft committed to explore filtering; he didn’t say it committed to implementing those filters.

Here is what Mr. Sohn, the Microsoft spokesman, told me yesterday when I asked him about what Mr. Perrette said: “I don’t think they are wrong, but we are not going to characterize those discussions.” Later he added, “We have agreed to work with NBC across a range of topics, and protection of copyrighted material is certainly one of them.”

I'm glad to hear this is untrue.  I had a feeling it might have been leaked in an attempt to dampen the news of the 2.5 firmware relelase.

So far from my limited use of it, I gotta say I absolutely love it but thats not without some reservations.

With Zune games so close on the horizon, and Audible support already announced, why release this firmware update now, when you could have just waited another month or so, and added those things into this version?  

I was intently looking forward to Audible support so that I wouldn't have to carry another MP3 player just to listen to them, and the lack of support in the 2.5 firmware was sorely disappointing.  

Of course, no company with a grain of marketing sense would release a new product with "plans" to restrict lawful distribution. They would build a sales base of respectable size and then institute the whim of the content providers by using copyright restrictions. After all, the terms of use everyone agrees to includes the right of the manufacturer to change the conditions of use at any time after purchase, doesn't it?

hi

i am from India - and compared to the US, there are less Apple fanatics here.

nytimes, news.google, ... all these see only the good in apple and the worst in microsoft.

why dont you please launch Zune in India soon?

Apple is planning to launch iPhone here - why can't you launch Zune?

I'm more excited about the XNA CTP 3.0 developers release... the Zune and XNA teams ought to be congratulated, comping and deploying a few games went over without a hitch! Thanks a million.

We'll believe it when we see it. I won't be surprised if MS sneaks in a copyright cop just before launch.

Now if Zune Marketplace could only price their videos in the currency of the country of origin rather than using a fake Monopoly money system. I want to know something costs $2 not 160 MS points.

Looks like NBC and Microsoft are caught on differing side of what their "pact" against piracy actually means. I gotta believe that NBC is deathly serious about a "non approved content killer".  Can understand Microsoft applying weasel words like "explore" to what they plan to do.  Either way this ends up badly for my Zune 80G video watching - either less content or less content. Bummer.

I don't trust Microsoft, I am sure they are working on a copyright cop.

They backstabbed their Plays for Sure and MSN Music customers. They have insulted the Zune users calling them pirates.

Yesterday, NBC jumped aboard Starship Zune after its protracted breakup with iTunes. It's clear why—and going with NBC's pricing was only part of it. Saul at the NYTimes says that Microsoft has agreed to develop a copyright filter that would...

I can't see Microsoft taking a step backward just to make NBC happy. Not with all the fuss about DRM-free music and how the Xbox looks the other way in terms of pirated content (thank you Xvid support).

What interested me most about this is that NBC doesn't just want to charge MORE for hot shows, they want to charge LESS for old shows, and offer season pass discounts. If I could purchase an entire season at a good enough discount, I would.

haha! I just made the first clock I've seen at least for the zune with XNA. It took about 30 seconds to add it to Alien Aggressors. Strangely my zune is on alaska time but it works! you can download my changed version of alien aggressors (with the clock) from www.csc.calpoly.edu/~mwazny/AlienAgressors.zip

follow the guide at zuneboards to install it.

Glad to hear that you aren't planning anything like that, guys. If you were, I'd ditch my Zune instantly.

This better not be true! I will take my Zune and all of my family's Zune's ( 6 of them) and put that crap on ebay for a cheap cheap price of 1 dollar each, then turn around and buy them all Apples to use!

Then I would advocate anti-zune for every single damn person I talk to.

Were talking about sports, I would slip "don't buy a zune" into the convo.

Were talking about building a house, "don't buy a zune"..

We are in Church, "don't buy a zune".

We are at a wedding, "don't buy a zune".

We are on a conferance call with department heads, "don't buy a zune".

That is how pissed I would be about it... So you don't get the wrong idea!  

PS: Thanks for killing all my Zunecasts after the 2.5 update. Nice QA work before the release.

do people actually own Zunes?

Hi Cesar.

"Just so no one gets the wrong idea" can you make a clearer statement?

Try this: "Zune devices will never contain DRM or content filtering."

comment removed (attempting to insult other users)

MrGutts, seems hardly necessary, since the average person doesn't have--and probably never will have--any idea of what a "Zune" is.

Microsoft, I hope you're listening--adding DRM for any reason will be the death knell for Zune's tiny market share.

Apple apparently refuses to do it. Since you're so fond of mimicking products that become successful, you should take a lesson.

"Try this: Zune devices will never contain DRM or content filtering."

It would be impossible for them to make such a strong statement, because IMO Microsoft is walking a tightrope between not pissing-off their users and appeasing the content providers. Looks like NBC is pushing this "Filter Cop" idea hard and I won't be surprise if they do cave-in to NBC in some way.

off topic but hey cesar other than my heroes epidsode shutting off in the middle and no tracking to restart it (tried watching again still restarted) i noticed that i bought two episodes. the whole season after i bought those two is 3680 points. If i bought the remaining shows it would only be 3660. why am i getting screwed 20 extra points here?

cesar. i think you guys might have a pricing hiccup. the second season of heros minus the two episodes i bought is 1760. i did the math for the remaining 9 at 160points an episode it should be 1440. why the hell am i getting screwed out of 320 points if i buy the whole season once as to episode by episode?

I guess at least this kills the Zune. DRM is over! If I buy a song, movie, whatever, ... I want to use it without this "will-it-work-what-happens-if" thoughts in mind. iTunes Plus and Amazon MP3 are going in the right direction and thats fair for the legal user.

This is just a burden for regular buyers and drives for shure many of them back into ripping and P2P filesharing, because there are no boundaries.

I can't understand why grown up CEO's have so much problems to see this simple and logical result.

Seems like some of the commenters are saying that they have the right to load pirated unauthorized illegal copies of video content onto their Zune's at any time.

This is disturbing in that it just brings to light the reality that there is a whole generation of people in the world who think it's ok to steal.

And even worse, it implies that this generation feels as though this is their given right to have access to illegal stolen content on their Zunes.

I don't think Microsoft is looking at that audience as potential consumers. On top of that, it's really time for this generation to re-evaluate their beliefs and mindset about the legitimacy of pirating content.

Piracy hurts Americans. It deprives content owners of rightfully-owed revenue. Piracy is wrong.

Christopher

clevy@buydrm.com

http://thedrmblog.com  

@Dan D: I'm fairly certain that's an NBC pricing issue, because the same situation exists on iTunes. If you plan to buy an entire season, you need to buy it *before* buying any individual episodes, because there is no extra discount for having already paid for part of the season. You ultimately end up paying for the same episode twice.

In your situation, if it's cheaper to buy the remaining episodes individually rather than the entire season, then you should go that route.

But this isn't Microsoft's fault; it's NBC's.

"Seems like some of the commenters are saying that they have the right to load pirated unauthorized illegal copies of video content onto their Zune's at any time."

Ha! I love it how it's either you are for DRM or you're a criminal.

It's more like don't treat me like a potential criminal if I am definitely not one! There are other ways to fight piracy than putting everyone in the same "you are a potential criminal" box. If I have to be patted down each time I leave a brick and mortar store and treated like some criminal, then I won't go back.

There are many many more of us out here who wants to pay for content than those who steals. Just make it easier for us to obtain the content, with little to no restrictions.

You are either anti-DRM or pro-DRM and Microsoft is not anti-DRM. The fact that this rumor would even be believed shows how people perceive MS. That is the real issue...

I think that once digital distribution has sorted itself out (i.e. music and videos playing on any device, not just iPod/Zune/whatever), piracy will be less of a problem. Right now we're being locked into ecosystems and often we're charged unfair prices on top of that so it's no wonder that some people turn to piracy.

On a side note, XNA killed my Zune. Awesome!

You know this really does need to be cleared up, I have often thought of buying a Zune only to slap myself in the face and say what were you thinking. Again I was led here by the same article from the times and when I read it I was like thank goodness I didn't buy a Zune.

I have an older Creative Zen Vision M, it works, I like it. Ipods Scare me because of the Itunes software and Zune scares me because well look at all the damage DRM copy protection etc has already done from Microsoft. I won't buy Vista because of DRM, not that I am a pirate is do not want false positives and all the RIAA lawsuits and all that other stuff they have basically scare me away from buying any new music, I have plenty of old CD's that Rip right down but then now I avoid buying new CD's because look at Sony's Fiasco with it's root kit. I bought some music from the MSN music store and well not I am hosed on that front too because Microsoft is not keeping it's servers up and going. Since Amazon started selling DRM free MP3s I can just download well I have finally started purchasing music again, while I purchase older music as most new Music sucks but it was older stuff that I never got on CD.

When I seen this article from the times it really made me feel justified in not buying a Zune because I have a ton of DRM free MP3 I either have the original CD packed away in a Box or an Amazon.com receipt for every one. I am Scared to get Vista and Scared to get a Zune for fear none of my media will work in the future. Because how are you going to tell if I got my MP3 from Amazon or I ripped it from a CD. And no thanks I have already been screwed $300 by Microsoft shutting off their MSN DRM servers. I am no way no how ever going to go to DRMed version of media ever again. Sorry but you know you can deal with NBC and whom ever you want you but in the end I am the consumer and right now with no guarantee that I can still use my current media in the future I really have to reason to upgrade.

@ Christopher Levy

I find it astonishing to find someone who actually believes DRM is a good thing. Yes, it ensures that artists/companies are paid for the DRM'd tracks people buy, but for many they put off people who want to buy music.

You also seem to be equating non-DRM with piracy. Last time I checked, Amazon was the 2nd highest music store. Also, I don't equate my ripping a DVD I have paid good money for any different than ripping a CD, despite it being deemed illegal. Ripping CDs would be deemed equally illegal if they had copy protection, but I'm sure you'd not appreciate that. If a legal site offered a non DRM video that I had on DVD and was planning to rip, I would buy the video as it would be more convenient.

I sincerely believe that if all the music and  video download stores dropped DRM across the board, p2p programs and sites would not be the haven of piracy they are today.

I have to say I'm glad to hear you dispel the rumors but I can tell you one thing: if it EVER comes to light that filters are on the Zune. I WILL drop kick it into the Hudson river. No ifs ands or buts about it.

Also Cesar, Cnet's Buzz Out Loud podcast talked about this post.

Anti-DRM isn't pro piracy.  If I rip a legally purchased DVD and convert to a file format compatable to the Zune, I want my Zune to play the video normally.  Not, "can't play this video because it doesn't have DRM so it must be pirated" garbage.  I also record over the air broadcasts HDTV broadcasts of NBC shows.  These are legally aquired copies, will the copywrite cop kill these too?

What's a Zune?

NBC is really scary guys. They want the copyright cop to be everywhere... including packet filtering at your ISP!

I wish I were making this up

NBC is working to develop the tools of big brother (if you can packet filter for one thing... you can packet filter for anything... ideas, spying, anything). They want to take the greatest achievement in individual liberty, freedom of ideas, speech, and thought... They want to build the tools to destroy this achievement in order to maximize profits of... The Sitcom.

Hell, why just discard packets.... why not modify them? Already being done by certain ISPs... Scary powerful computers one day could actually rewrite your ideas.

It is a much bigger issue than IP or DRM. They want to filter every packet you send/receive on the net.

This is so much bigger than Zune/ipod fanboy stuff.

NBC has become the dark side. And like most forces of darkness, they have no idea how evil they are.

This really a snafu on both companies parts. Due the NBC statment, I have been looking a Ipods.  

Why bother with an iPod wannabe that takes 1-2 years to copy what Apple does?  Oh, you can share...  Good luck finding someone?

Until MS categorically states that they will never put "Copyright Cop" filters on the Zune, this is all just spin and deflection.

You should have come out with a stronger statement such as the Zune software will never have a copyright filter.

Microsoft are a company not averse to DRM but are seen as very pro-DRM and anti-consumer.

Because you have not come out strongly against it this copyright filter issue will only grow legs & be a constant argument against Zune's in the future damaging the platform.

Unlike other companies which have stated nothing on this topic it is too late for MS the genie is out of the bottle and you cannot put it back in. Your diplomatic wording keeping all your options open is not sufficient to sway the internet mob that you are in cahoots with big media.

I wonder when all of us Zune owners are going to stop and celebrate a new milestone: Microsoft announced this week that they have shipped 2 million Zunes since they were launched more than 18 months ago.

Woo-hoo!

Watch out Apple!

Chip - I'm sure Apple is quite concerned - in the same time period that Microsoft sold 2 million Zunes, Apple sold about 76 million iPods.

I think Microsoft has quite a bit of work to do before Apple has anything to get too concerned about.

"Until MS categorically states that they will never put "Copyright Cop" filters on the Zune, this is all just spin and deflection.".

@Marcos El Malo

Actually they can't state what you require unless they add a caveat such as "unless said filters are required by law in the jurisdiction where the Zune is sold.".

Here is what they are saying.

"We have no plans or commitments to implement any new type of content filtering in the Zune devices as part of our content distribution deal with NBC."

Here is the key phrase: "We have no plans or commitments to implement any new type of content filtering in the *Zune devices*..."

So the *Zune software* is fair game. Lucky for us (?) microsoft fixed it so that we can drag and drop (I am pretty sure) and get around any problems that we may encounter with syncing our media that way.

@Mel - from what I've read, DRM profits mainly the recording company, not the artist. IMHO, DRM was invented to start M$ down the road to total media access control; and by extension, Internet access control. Companies like NBC are run by stuffed shirts and get suckered into this kind of stuff all the time because they actually believe all the pretty Powerpoints.

The reason for my belief on this is two-fold.

First, as regards piracy, we already had a "Fair-Use" set of laws on the books that completely covered the issue of copying and redistributing original works. It only needed to be enforced.

Second, if M$ and the record companies were really serious about controlling piracy, M$ would simply add a content filter to Windows Server 200x. Said server software could just block pirated copies on the fly and the whole problem goes away very quickly. Or, since we know that college students are the leading source of piracy -- why they brag about this is beyond me -- the new server content filter could merely pass along the content and automatically bill the students card or account.

Ooohhh. Now we're making $$, eh! Right up M$ alley.

It would not be hard to add a similar "feature" to Linux. What a nice cash flow that would be, splitting the fees with the school, eh?

This comment is priceless! "the second season of heros minus the two episodes i bought is 1760. i did the math for the remaining 9 at 160points an episode it should be 1440. why the hell am i getting screwed out of 320 points if i buy the whole season once as to episode by episode?" The fact that it's a perfectly serious question is astounding. What a great user experience you must all be having!

Sunshine... 80 degrees... must leave the office.... Here's the reading list... Have a good weekend. ITP

then why why wont my zune software play, rip, or even register my cds immediately after downloading 2.5? i didnt even know about the discussions going on until i did a search to figure out what was going on. i must say that im furious. i bought the zune knowing that it would allow play, and rip from AUTHENTIC, STORE BOUGHT cds. i feel violated. im an artist and dont agree with pirated music "sharing" but i feel that if i shell out the close to 20 bucks for a real cd because im a stickler for artist rights, i should be able to USE said PURCHASED music!

comment removed (picking fights/insulting other readers)

Hi! I am a Japanese. Though I looked for English study in various ways, I commented because contents were interesting. I was able to enjoy it very much. In addition, I come to look. Please keep it for us. Thank you!

As a new owner of a Zune (it's a gift) I will be certain to warn people away, should it EVER be found to intentionally delete files I put there, or if it's caught phoning home to the MAFIAA.

who is the company i call when i need my zune fixed?

Hi!

My name is Jessika!

Good article- thanks a lot for putting all this together. Waiting for more !

I am the power. Wait a minute.

This is an 80 GB Zune. It has been used less than a year and comes with an AC adapter, clear screen cover, USB cable and Zune head phones with replaceable covers. Lightly used no scratches my starting price is $175. I bought it for $275 then it cost an extra $30 for the AC adapter and $10 for the protective screen cover.

for more info and pics please contact jacobrieder@msn.com  

i have a question:

if u cancel the zune pass subscription, will they delete the songs from ur computer, zune or both?

um

does anyone know wehre to get a 16gb zune for under $164.5o? im trying to c if anyone beat wallmart's price.

ok so i have a 30g first gen. zune. i got past the whole freezing thing. it was all working fine and dandy until i tried to download a cd on to it. ok so i try to drag it to my zune the all the sudeden my computer isnt recognizing my zune.well it shows that its there it just has an exclemation point in it and it wont let me put the music on it. anyone have any advice for me? it would be greatly appriciated

Has anyone found a wireless "ear bud" or light headphone solution you can wear while running? I know Zune has wifi so it seems something should be out there. thanks.

dave

Zune is a joke, im so sorry i left itunes. I bought 3 zune players for my family 4 months ago. I have had the worse time with the down loads, tech support is a joke. I fell like they are ripping me off. I have been on support for more than 8 day with 13 hours trying to fix the problem. They just got be back up and running not more that 2 weeks ago and now more probles. Zune YOU SUCK!!!!!!!!!!! i will never ever tell any one to but this junk............. Your support is a joke. I love the philippines but these guys don't know what they are doing.. I really feel i been riped off... DO NOT BUY ANY ZUNE>>>>>>>>>>> I"M GOING BACK TP I TUNES>>>

Why doesn't the zune

I'd love 2 get the Battlestar Galactica Zune !!! LOVE your show-keep up the good work & timely info!!!! Zune tag= STEP TWO THIS

does the zune player have a built in speaker so dat it can play loud without headphones?

Hey, ok, I get it, I guess - but does this really work?

Excellent site, keep up the good work.  I read a lot of blogs on a daily basis and for the most part, people lack substance but, I just wanted to make a quick comment to say I'm glad I found your blog.  Thanks,

A definite great read.. <a href="wiki.hudson-ci.org/.../~bill-bartmann">:)</a>

<a href="wiki.jfrog.org/.../a>

There is obviously a lot to know about this.  There are some good points here.