Nov 6, 2007
by Cesar Menendez at 7:55 PM

In this year’s update to Zune, you’ll find a brand new rating system. We’re moving from the 0-5 star rating to a simpler, more straightforward rating system: “like” (symbolized by a heart), and “don’t like” (symbolized by a broken heart).

Now for the backstory: I spoke with some folks on the design/dev team about this and picked up some of the reasoning and thinking behind the new rating system. Last year, we extensively tested the 0-5 star rating system with users – both on the current system and their potential usage -  and learned a few interesting things. First, there was a great degree of confusion between different ratings for different users – e.g. a 3 star rating for one user might mean “I love this song” but for another user, it could mean “this song is just ok.” And when we asked users if they would rate content using the existing system, 90% said that they wouldn’t. So we had to figure out a way to implement a rating system that users both understood and would be likely to use. We tested several different variations, and in the end users gravitated towards the heart/broken heart system, as it put track ratings into more human terms. Hence, the new rating system.

It’s important to note here, too that the new rating system is transferable. That is, ratings that you had in your existing (pre-November 13 update) will automatically convert to the new system – anything below 2 stars will display as a broken heart, and anything above will display as a heart.

178 Comments
Comments

What about smart playlists?!  That's one of the main reasons I switched to WMP11 and soon to be the Zune software.  (That was before iTunes added auto playlists.

can't there be both???  (Somehow...?)

My problem with this is, if I didn't like a song, why would I have put it on my Zune in the first place?

Ughhh... not good.  This is what valuing focus groups over your real users can do.  So what if it's not consistent between users?  It doesn't need to be.  It simply needs to be consistent and flexible for *each individual's needs*.  You could have simply had a basic and advanced mode.  In basic mode, the heart would = 5 and the broken heart would = 1.  In advance mode, users could choose 1-5 themselves.  Problem solved.  Why take something away that other find so very useful?  There are times where I just want to listen to my most favorite music (5), and other times I want a little more variety (3-5).  And sometimes I just want everything (1-5).  And you could be creative with sync rules with the 1-5 system.

Come on!  You've still got until November 13th to put it back.  Please???

John  

I'm just going to be straight up and tell you guys that this is not a good move.  I would hope that because of the degree that you value customer feedback as opposed to focus group data, you will listen to us.  Changing the rating system will break one of the most useful mechanisms of the music software.  When you have Zune Pass and a library with over 10,000 songs, auto playlists are almost a necessity.  The 5 star ratings system makes auto playlists an incredibly useful feature.  A like it or don't like it rating system essentially makes this unusable.  

Now, you guys can listen or ignore us....but don't say we didn't say anything when you get a well-deserved, heavy dosage of backlash for this.

P.S. there are some things you just can't dumb down...

Seriously dont like it. i didnt use it a lot in the first place but occasionally i would and it was very easy to understand and useful. Ur not going to have a song in ur library that u dislike so u need a middle option.... the heart thing is just WAY to basic to work!

I think the new system is better. I either like something or dont. but usually if i dont like it its not on my zune unless its a whole album because i dont like incomplete albums. im so excited for the new software. ill just be able to leave my zune in my truck (90% of the use is in it with the transmitter) download stuff on my pc and sync it before work while my trucks warming up in the morning. this is awesome. what a perfect way to start my new job next week.

I like it. I'ts more fun.

I never really saw a point to rating my music because generally my taste fluctuates too much, I could see myself using this new system though.

hey cesar great news! I possibly have someone buyin my Zune, but i'm not going anywhere, because  november 20th i'm going to the USA! Tucson Az it's like 3 hours from here so I'm gettin a Zune 80 =)

about the rating.. do you want the truth? I simply dont care ;P with just a recently added and the quick playlist i'm fine ;)

De México Pa'l Mundo!

The rating system sounds good. I guess I'm curious if there's a big purpose behind it? I remember I asked this at the meet-up too. Essentially, something which I think would be interesting is if Zune had a built-in playlist for songs I like. And then when I also was playing my entire library in a random mode, I would like it if the Zune software picked songs I liked way more often than ones I didn't like, or not even include them at all.

Nov 13 can't come soon enough!

I'm going to have to agree with the vast vast majority of sentiments expressed about this issue. Microsoft has a great track record of comprehensively researching and studying issues and options. In this case I think you guys are taking a step that is quite extreme in it departure from the system commonly used.

As a Zune Pass member I rely HEAVILY on the 5 star rating system. I generally will only listen to music with between 4 and 5 stars and will then choose to download it. Why? Because the difference in quality between songs rated below 4 stars and those above is often significant. This could be a great system for the team to get info about songs but it is TERRIBLE for individual users to sift through the Zune Marketplace and their own libraries. I hope to god this system works better than my intuition tells me it will.

Also, one reason why people may not currently use the 5 star system very much is that it is incredibly unintuitive to rate songs from your computer... it's simple on your Zune, but not in the ZMP.

I hope all current ratings will be stored somewhere so when the 5 star system is brought back we don't lose information we've spent countless cumulative hours working on.

I hope I'm wrong.

Why are people asking why would you put the song on the zune in the first place? YOU DON'T!!! A PERSON SENDS U A SONG VIA WI-FI AND THEN YOU CHOOSE IF YOU DISLIKE OR LIKE IT!!!!Thus, in the the end you will know what songs u liked and did not. You may also rate a song in your zune if you want to but it is mostly for the wi-fi sharing part. If a person wants you to hear a song and you don't know what it sounds like or what it is about or ANYTHING... Thats the reason for sharing, Thus RATING THE SONG!!!

What? I really don't like that new idea. It's too black and white. Love or hate? What if I like one song (4-star) but I love this song (5-star). This is an essential tool for my autoplaylists and organization. Besides, if I don't like a song I will delete it, not give it a broken heart. You guys seem like you're trying to reinvent the wheel here. Don't fix what isn't broken, pleeeeeaase.

How about both? That would be great. The hearts for the simple user and stars for everyone else.

I simply don't rate music. If I don't like it, I don't have it. Simple as that. I like the new system.

And there are, in fact, 3 different ratings. Unrated, Love it, and Hate it.

I don't like it!

Here's what I do, I upload whole albums and then as I'm in shuffle mode I will tag the song:

1 meaning take it off,

2 meaning that I'm getting tired of it, and it will probably be a 1 sooner or later. Or, maybe it's a current hit, but starting to get old.

3. It's ok to listen to

4. It's a good song, and probably one of the reasons why I even downloaded the album

5. Phenominal. I love it!  

I could see this "Hate it/ Love it" system being a big issue with serios music fans, and completely changing their listening habbits. That's not good.

And to add to this answer, "...if I didn't like a song, why would I have put it on my Zune in the first place?"

- If I'm a DJ, I have to have all sorts of music (good & bad taste) so I need to have a 1-5 rating system, so when I am on my own time I can listen to the 3-5 range..

I believe there should possibly be both.  I believe that the entire reason they're doing this is for the new Zune "Social" website or whatever.  How about you make it so that people have the 5-star ratings on their devices, but on the website it translates that into the heart/broken heart form (3 stars + up/2 stars + down).

I think it's a bad move to completely take out a feature that so many users use (on a daily basis).  This also takes out the auto-playlists feature (I assume) which is one of both my and my friends' favorite features).  I hope that this is addressed in an update VERY soon after launch. (Or possibly a few months after having so many people keep complaining about it).

I have to agree with those saying that this is a step back.  I love the five star rating system and using that as input into smart playlist.

I was hoping that the updated software on the 13th would improve the syncing such that even if I am not adding new music the rating that I do on my Zune is synced when I plug it in.

I think the basic and advance rating is a perfect way to cover all users.

This is a disappointment.  I will have to adjust I guess.  Full hearts are tier one, broken hearts are tier two and unranked are their just to complete full albums.

The thing that most of you guys dont realize is that the new rating system WILL be a huge aspect of Zune Social. And if you keep the 5 star rating system, it would just make everything way to hard and difficult to manage (the ratings fro example).

Instead, a heart (like or not) system would make it more convenient.

Cant wait for the 13!!

No Way !

Bang go all my auto playlists !  I have auto playlists based on genre and artist.  How do I distinguish between album fillers that are OK and bad music that I don't want to delete because I own the album.  

How are these ratings going to work with existing MP3 metadata system?  Will these work with WMP ? and MCE ?

2 and above being good music !  This will effectively remove all my ratings for all my music that I've done over the years.  Please can you clarify what the upgrade will actually do - where are the ratings held?

Why not discuss these changes before making the changes?  isn't this what blogging is about?  Pointless blogging this 7 days before making the release.

Okay so I've got a serious problem that I need help with and hoping it can happen here.

I was chilling today listening to my Zune and presto chango it stops working.  So I go to check out what the deal is and it tells me all my tracks are expired.  

I've been searching online about this and all I can find is that my tracks will expire and theres no way to change expiration date.  So if this is the case I'm ticked.  If this is not the case please tell me what I can do to get my 4000+ songs back?

Please tell me that this is not some shady ZMP pass deal.  My pass is active and has been.

Thanks

Any help is appreciated.

Cesar,

Why would I have music rated as Don't Like on my Zune or in my Collection? So now the heart rating offers only two options; Indifferent or Like It. This new rating system is flawed from the start. Star ratings are used everywhere in Windows Vista Photo Gallery, Movie Reviews, Restaurant Reviews....just about every review site you can think of uses something like stars. iTunes has recently updated the star ratings system where the ratings of individual songs are complied to give an overall average for the entire album. This is a great way to create filters for auto playlists. Please listen to what your real users are telling you and put star ratings back in the new software. You know it makes sense.

I have to agree with the yucks on this one. I have 19,500+ songs. They cannot be just a heart or a broken heart. Moreover, I'm not a 12-year-old girl. Jeez, man. Heart or broken heart? You're kidding, right? When are the Hello Kitty Zune 4s and 8s coming out?

Stupid.

I rank all my music and make many smart playlist. IE: more then 4 stars composed by Kanye West.

from what i understand this wont work anymore.

this doesnt work for me at all.

and i was so looking foward to the 13th

:(

very sad face

MICROSOFT! To some of us the 5 star rating system is more important than FM radio, Wifi sync or podcast. If this system doesn't come back a lot of us will be taking a second look at Apple.

We've spent countless hours rating our songs so that we can easily create playlists. I pray this system is only in ZMP and does not change the actual ratings in the files. This would totally piss off a lot of people.

I don't care either way, but this is one of the big negatives that I have seen people complain about with this upcoming update... they should at least make it so people can still use the 5 star system if they want too.

I agree with the sentiments that we're losing something in the translation to a simplified Heart/No Heart system.  For one, multiple ranking allows for multiple user interpretations.  I use 1 star for songs to delete, 2 for songs I'm still thinking about, and 3-5 for ranking my tastes.

What I sincerely wish Zune offered (and hope will offer) is the ability to create dynamic playlists using the star system, so that I can ask my Zune to give me a dynamically changing playlist of my 5-star songs, even after I've uploaded music from ZMP without having ranked it.

Heart/No Heart is a nice system that I think would be a great addition to the 5-star system; it would let you designate songs to automatically remove upon sync, for example - can't we as users have both the old and new systems?

Hope this comment is helpful.

One of the best features of the existing Zune marketplace is the visibility of the 5 star ratings on tracks.  Not sure about this move to 3 stars (down, middle, up).  I'll echo the echo and say that this might not be the best move.

It looks like flagging songs is also gone - is this true?  This is another feature I use extensively (flagging tracks while I'm out and about and reviewing them when I sync).

Not a good move by the Zune team.

Like many others, I have many playlists that rely on the 5 star rating.

5 Star - Best Tracks on Zune

4 Star - Favourites

3 Star - Good / Listenable

2 Star - Trash/Delete

1 Star - Trash/Delete

How in the world am I going to have playlists that have a Good/Bad rating? Also I have no song on my zune that is below 3 stars, so having all my songs transferred to "Like it" as you call it is ridiculous. You've dumbed down a great listening feature...

You've made my zune, not me.

I only HOPE that the 5 star feature is brought back.

I seldom use the 5 star rating..but a BLACK/WHITE, LOVE/HATE, ON/OFF rating is way to simplistic..

If you want to stick with the heart..figure out an in between to at least have a middle ground.

Love it, meh, hate it...much better..

Meh, I'm cool with it.

Like/Don't like is also as subjective as the 5-star system.

I might like this song, somebody might hate this song. So that system is already broken.

I might grant this song as excellent (puts a 5), somebody might like it somewhat (4). How hard is that?

5-star system isn't hard to understand people:

1 star = Awful

2 star = kinda bad

3 star = OK

4 star = pretty good

5 star = excellent

With a Like/Don't like, it may be more straightforward, but...

I'm not a big fan of rap music, so I would probably put a don't like on all of them.

Opposite for a rap fanatic. So this system is very flawed.

At least with the 5-star, I could say that this rap song is pretty good, by giving it a slightly higher rating.

Please, reconsider doing the 5-star switch to Like/Don't like. 5-star just works for most people. It's not hard to understand.

I have to say I'm more inclined to this love/hate selection of music. In regards to someone's prior posting of not putting it on their zune if they don't like it. I see how this would be nice. The 5 star system drove me nuts. Somedays I'm fickle and won't give anything five stars some days I will give everything 5.

The nice part about this new rating system is that it's easy to just decide "I'm sick of this song" or "I miss this song" and bring it back into favor or put it back out to pasture. I'm for it.

Besides, I usually utilize auto-playlists to make playlists of oft neglected songs that I haven't heard in a while so that I can find the ones I want to put back into my favorites.

I also have to voice some displeasure about this change. One of the reasons that I do not like "iLike" is because of their insistence on a simple binary rating system. There are some things I like more than others and other things I like less than others. Three choices I could deal with, four is nice, but five is really ideal.

Will this binary preference system also propagate to the Explorer preview in Vista?

I don't like rating systems because my music tastes fluctuate.  Sure, I'd give Bing Crosby's Jingle Bells a 5-star rating. But that doesn't mean I want to listen to it in July instead of a 3-star song.

Can we at least rate songs in the Zune Marketplace even if we haven't downloaded them?

I'm kind of torn on this issue. Honestly, I thought the new ranking system was a really stupid move the first time I heard about it. Initially, I agreed with the points others have made (too simple, why would I have music on my player that I don't like etc.), but I'm thinking more about it now and I think I actually would be able to use this feature.

I used to rank all of my music on the 1-5 star scale, but I didn't really use it for much. Right now, I have a bunch of mp3s I don't really want to listen too while walking to/from work every day (some soundtracks, audio books etc.), and I think this new system could be useful in keeping those tracks out the shuffle.

It would be nice if Zune gave its users a choice(after all, you make it you, right?!), but this really isn't as bad as I thought it was at first.

I like being able to easily recognize songs that I like a little, vs songs that I like a lot and everything in between.  I think people's tastes in music isn't as simple as just good or bad, and the ratings should be able to reflect that.  

Treating all zune users like idiots who can't figure out how to rate their own music on a 5 star system isn't cool.  That said, I'm hoping 90% of users wouldn't use the current rating system because they just don't care about ratings, and not just because they can't figure it out.  I guess I'm in the 10% minority here, but I'm dissapointed.

I think like it/ don't like it is great for ranking music in market place. But rating is better for ranking music in my own collection.

I think a great combination of both ideas will be ability to vote multiple times. Essentially, if I say "like it" twice, it should mark the song with both heart and number 2.- something we have in certain blogs like thumbed up twice or thubmed down 5 times etc.

I was all set to dump my ipod and start zuning but count me out with this idiotic system. What systems DON'T use 5 star ratings systems?  Netflix, blockbuster, itunes, musicmatch, WINDOWS MEDIA PLAYER, etc.  They ALL use them for a reason.  

I must say this is about the dumbest move I can think of and I am shocked MS would want to do something like this.  Whoever made this decision should be immediately terminated.

Chris + Matt + John West = Exactly what i would have said.  I'm pretty dissapointed about this "improvement" and hope it gets reverted or changed to something like what John suggested sometime in the near future.

I heavily use the 5 star system on the smart playlists.

That's ok to try the new like/dislike. I'm not against trying new things.

How about making the like/dislike a default but let us change to the 5 star system on the options tab?

Just like Chris mentioned above, I also switched to WMP because of the rating system.

Please, make it a user choice which system to use. (like Celsius and Fahrenheit)

hey cesar I've also noticed something else, a year ago when the Zune was out (yeah I've been with the Zune since the beggining), everyone was like: ¿what's a Zune?, and now almost everyone knows what is it, and the no-ipodfans wants one.

The Zune is growing in Mexico! cool.

De México Pa'l Mundo!

So wait wait wait wait /wait/

Is there a broken heart, heart, and neutral option, or just heart and broken heart?

Regardless you should make there be an "advanced option" to bring it back to being a 0-5 star rating. my reason being is playlists, it's the easiest way to sort them out on the go with smart-playlists. Plus, with most of the people out there, if they don't like a song, it's not on their DAP/PMP. Simple as that.

Basically, make the 0-5 rating an option, or make on the go saved playlists on my zune manageable, versus how with they are now, all the saved playlists (aka everything but my quick list) aren't manageable.

MY FIRST GEN DELL DJ FROM 4 YEARS AGO HAD THE OPTION TO MANAGE SAVEABLE PLAYLISTS ON THE PLAYER!!!

So please take care of that. Please? It's my one huge pet peeve about the zune; seriously.

Its not so much that I hate the system.  I just want to see consistency across the various Microsoft ecosystems.  Media Center is a front-end we often use to access and playback Zune marketplace content.  And I imagine you folks will get around making Windows Mobile compatible with the content from your marketplace.  If you make a change...fine, but make sure that consistent in your other platforms.

doesn't this take away from the whole "you make it you" to be more similar across the board?  I personally do not like the system, especially because I have spent a lot of time rating my stuff.  there needs to at least be a neutral (different from no rating) but more positive way of marking things.  Are you going to at least have the ratings preserved so that when you change back everything will still be there?

I can see this being beneficial for those who never rate their music, but not for me.  Give us a choice so i can make it me.

Frankly, I do not only love or hate a song, some I really love, like top 10 love, and some i just like on a basic level.  please don't screw my ratings, or i may go back to <shh> (iTunes) to keep a real rating system.  i will at least go back into that inferior program and make sure all my real ratings are up to date.

My theory is that the new system is for better integration into Zune Social.  There still needs to be a like, but not "the greatest song ever" rating.

Bottom Line: Give us an option, don't delete our ratings.

Add me to the list of people with massive music libraries and auto-playlists that rely on 0-5 star ratings.

A compromise would be more of a hate-like-love rating system, so that we can at least differentiate between those tracks we like a little and those which we like a lot. Alternatively, you could add a favorites option...

I presume that when you bring the music into another program like regular WMP11, broken hearts will be translated to 2 stars and hearts will be translated to 5 stars? If you made the translation a function of the like;don't like rating AND the frequency of play, that would be pretty 1337 btw ;)

Great move, rating system was pretty pointless IMHO, never knew anybody that rated their music. In response to some angry responders, there are really 3 ratings:

Heart - Good song/Great Song

Nothing - Impartial

Broken Heart - Don't like it / Delete it

Why are they dumbing down a system for the sake of consistency? I don't care what rating system Joe from Hoboken uses to rate his music.

At the very least give us both modes.

Can I upgrade my player but not my ZMP?

Do NOt LiKe!

Reasons being that a 5 star system is universal. If people are confused about it SLAP THEM! The system (and small variations of such like 10 and 4 star) are used in damn near all mediums and are widely accepted. The main reason of using multiple points is to split the great from the good from the average from the bad. Like and Dislike is too white and black. Sure you can "like" a song but do you REALLY like it? Can you listen to it 15 or 20 times every couple of days? Thats how i rate and it's important to me when managing my songs.

Matter of fact, I wish the zune would organize by star. So i could have the stuff i'm really digging at the time (rated 5 and some 4s) sorted for quick listening.

This new system is to water down, and going to stir ppl that are serious about the collection away with the water down system. please allow for both rating system.

I like when i can look at a album on ZMP and know what the top hits of the albums are. This new system almost makes me not want to upgade to the new firmare

***** - Kicks Ass Across The Universe

**** - Most Excellent Tunage

*** - Tolerable

** - A Once-In-A-Decade Listen

* - Make It An iTunes Exclusive

***** - Zune 80/Zune flash

**** - Zune 80

*** - Zune 80

Well... maybe mine was a stupid question.

But I wished I didn't have to make the switch.

I was so excited to buy the Zune 80.

I am seriously thinking about keeping my Zune 30 and stopping the automatic update.

No firmware update and no software update for me.

My kneejerk reaction is to join the choir of "autoplaylist needs 5 stars" voices, but I'll step back for a moment.

My usual autoplaylist grabs whatever new podcasts/music has appeared on my PC and puts that up front in order of file creation date, then the rest is a jumble of Random 4-or-more stars.

I guess that could still work with like/dislike. Preferably, like/meh/dislike, because there's stuff I'll tolerate as filler, and then there's stuff that I just Don't Like but have for completeness of albums/reference.

How will the Marketplace (et al) work, though? By aggregate rating? (eg: 80% Like, 20% Dislike)

Using the new Rating system: "Don't Like" this feature

Being a retired Microsoft employee(10 years) I am upset what the development team has been focusing their resources on, while there is not enough developer resources for Gapless playback, clock functionally and many other top 10 requested features.   This team has the resources to change the rating system.

1)The simple fact is most people who currently don’t rate their songs will not rate their songs with this new system.  

2)There is no reason for the development team to take away functionally.  Rating could be displayed in either "Like/Don't like" or 0-5 depending on the user’s choice.   The user could change these setting at any time.  In the simple system anything rating “Like” would be given a rating of 4 and anything rated “Don't Like” would be given a rating of 2.  Later on when the user wants more control of their rating system they can move to the 0-5 rating system.

Zune development team:  You need to focus on the features customers want and make a better product than the competition.

I have not used the heart/broken heart system and I already do not like it. I use the star rating system and have been since I started ripping music onto windows media player. I have most of my music set up with the rating system. Please let us be able to continue to use this system.

The advanced/basic mode option seems to be a great idea.

Please let us know if this will be fixed soon, it makes me not want to get the update on nov 13.

This makes a lot of sense to me at least. Once in a while I try to rate songs but it usually takes me longer than a few seconds to think about what I want to rate it... which I think is far too long.

I either like it... or don't.

I hope the Zune team ignores the "hardcore" whiners and goes with the streamlined rating system. The focus group was right.

Most normal users ignore the current rating system because it's a colossal bother, but the love/hate system will allow us to flag the exceptionally good and bad without having to parse stuff like "well, is it a 3.5 or a 4?" Haha, I can just imagine some greasy dude sweating it out while he's decides the fate of every track in his collection.

I don't think it's such a big deal.

All in all i believe the new zune is going to be an amazing product no matter what, PERIOD.

If you don't like  the song you won't have it and if you do it'll be on your zune.

Why does it make it different to have a label on songs like or not. If you do it's on your zune if not. It'll probably not be.

I don't like the Like/Dislike system. I also don't like the 5 star system. A Like/Neutral/Dislike system would be best!

Also, I would REALLY like to know what all the music is from the zunejourney.net site. It is amazing. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

ya... I never found the rating thing useful simply because I know what songs I like and what songs I don't like. That being said, I still think forcing everyone to use the like/don't like rating system is a bad idea. What would be good is this: people can choose whether they want 5 star or like/dislike(can even make like/dislike the default) and 1 or 2 stars counts as dislike if you share songs with some1 else or do anything social related. It would simply do 5 stars on your own library if you want to. I don't think that's unreasonable... I could probably code it in like 5 minutes and it would make a whole lot of people(read comments above) happy and would hurt no one.

Hi all,

I really use the 5 star rating, I have my music library rated mainly this way:

5-I really like

4-OK

3-Just Downloaded full album and probably would not listen to this

2-Need/Want to Keep

1-Not Needed

0-Needs Rating

I have some auto lists that use ratings:

Unclassified-Needs to be rated

5NewStars-Short selection of 5stars songs from last 2 years

5Stars-Larger selection of 5Star songs

4Stars-Favourites (Very Large)

I only sync to the Zune device 5Star songs or Special artist Playlists, this is the way I manage to keep a large library (10K songs) and a 30GZune with only 50% music (and 50% video)...

I would be OK with a Heart (like/don'tlike) system for the Zune Device, but for the whole library is a bad idea (IMHO).

Cheers,

DS.

Well this update made my evening. Confirmation that the software upgrade is indeed coming on the 13th. Horrah.

I was really looking forward to buying the Zune80 and finally having an easier way to rate my music (while at work).

Like many others with large collections a 5 star rating system is essential!

Please either support both systems or rethink this  decision.

Like a large number of commentors here, I really don't like this. I also use star ratings to sort all of my playlists out automatically in iTunes. I cannot efficiently sort 100GB of music in any other way. I like the new Zune a lot and was planning to switch but this has put me right off.

You really need to reconsider this decision.

N.

I actually like the new system.  I think people are taking it too literally when you say LOVE/HATE.  It's not really LOVE/HATE, but more of LOVE/NOT-SO-MUCH.  

Besides, many people on here use 1 or 2 stars for songs they don't like.  Then use </3 for that.  And for the songs you're mid-way on: don't rate them at all.  And for the songs you LOVE give it a <3

Simple & Easy.

To me, both systems seem to have their flaws.  The love it/hate it system is too rigid and the 5-star system has one or two too many stars than needed.  That being said, I would much prefer the system that is going to give me greater flexibility (i.e. the 5-star system).

The problem I run into now with the 5-star system is that I've basically turned it into a 3-star system.  Anything with 1 or 2 stars rarely gets listened to (unless I'm listening to an album as a whole).  Anything with 4 or 5 stars gets most of my attention, but in terms of enjoyment, the difference between the two is largely symbolic -- a 5-star song is what I consider as close to perfect as an artist can get; however, if I only listen to 5-star songs, I'll quickly get bored and want more variety, so I balance that by listening mostly to 4 and 5-star songs.  If I still want more variety, I can throw in the 3-star songs.

The problem with Love/Hate is that now I'm basically limited to all of my music (which previously would have been 1,2,3,4, and 5 stars) or all of the music I like (3,4,5, and possibly 2 stars), even if I only like it a little.  Love/Hate has taken away the ability to sit down and say "today I want to listen to music that I really like".

What I'd actually like to see, because it greater reflects my listening habits, is a combination of a Love/Hate with Moods.  I tend to listen to different playlists based more on my moods than anything.  I could easily abandon the 5-star system if I was given the opportunity to create playlists from music I love to listen to when I'm tired, or music I love to listen to when I'm happy, or even music I love to listen to when I'm depressed.  That to me would be of incredible value.

Thanks, Cesar. Just to clarify on the conversion: "below 2 stars" will display as a broken heart; "above 2 stars" will display as a heart. What about 2 stars itself? Broken heart?

I have to agree with a lot of the negative posts on this rating system.  The new system is far too simplistic.  Why not just change the stars to hearts if it's about "human terms"?  IMO, that would keep the hardcore ratings users happy and also make the system appeal to casual users.  Again, if it's really about the appeal factor.  To me it's all about functionality, which the Love It or Hate It system is not.  At least give us the option of choosing a rating system.  'Novice' or "Advanced'

Peace.          

I don't mind the simplification, as personally differentiating 2 stars and 1 stars never made much sense to me and differentiating a 4 or 5 star was also hard... so I totally get what you are going for and I support it.

WITH ONE CAVEAT, You need to have a 3 star system.  It has to be Hate Like Love.  The reason is that for people with huge collections there are large gradients in your feelings towards your music.  And there is a big difference between a song I love and will always listen to when it comes up in random and a song I like that I may sometimes skip.  Hate of course I don't ever want to come up.

The reason for hate is that some people keep full albums (me...) and don't like all the songs, others keep music that others may like... a girlfriend for example.  So there are reasons to have music you aren't fond of available.

Some people are suggesting that you use unrated as a like (vs love) the problem is that there is no way to differentiate music you have not rated from music you just like (but don't love) so that won't do.

I have a large music collection and I haven't really rated any of it.  I like to have a playlist of all unrated tracks that I can listen to when traveling and actually make an effort to rate songs.  But this system will really taint that without a like/love differentiation.

You also lose the auto-rating with this don't you?  I loved the concept of the song I listen to often automatically getting boosted ratings without intervention, not a perfect system, but handy.

So I don't know.  People are scared of change, and ironically in your bid for wider acceptance you may have seriously angered your early adopters that are more technically minded.

I say keep it, but add a 3rd level, I think it really really needs it.

Good luck, hopefully for you guys this is just a vocal minority.

“anything below 2 stars will display as a broken heart, and anything above will display as a heart.”

If I read your last sentence literally, below 2 = broken heart and above 2 = heart.  Then what will songs be if they have 2 stars, no heart?

I only have one question....can I go back to the star rating if I don't like the heart rating?

This is a big problem. There is are many gradations between loving and not loving a song. I really hope you will reconsider this. I'm using ratings for auto-playlists (combined with genres). How can you do any kind of auto playlists with just a 2 ratings?

Also, Vista now has ratings for everything! Why are you inconsistent with the rest of the OS? This should all be standard.

you're killing me.  

I like the new system.  With the five star system if something was mediocre I had to give it 3 stars.  In the new system, unrated means mediocre.  If I don't either love it or hate it, I don't have to do anything.  

I think the playlists will still work too.  If you want what was level 5, only play "heart" music.  If you want 3-5, play unrated and heart.

As for the question, "why would I have music on my zune that I hate?", well because I hadn't listened to it before it was on my zune.  As someone else said, this is an indicator to remove it.

For the person requesting the 3 star system, is there a difference between Hate Like Love and Hate Unrated Love?  Like I said, I would prefer not to rank music that is just average.  

Please leave an advanced mode with the 5 star rating! I use it for auto playlists all the time - and have spent a huge amount of time rating all of my collection! This would be quite a disappointment for me!

"I hope the Zune team ignores the "hardcore" whiners and goes with the streamlined rating system. The focus group was right."

+1.

Please don't mess up my collection.

I'll give it a whirl!

PS - Smart playlists?  Do they exist now??  If so I haven't come by them but Zune really needs that feature!!

This is a real bummer. On a scale of 1 to 3 where 1 is 'meh' and three is 'love', 70% of the stuff on my Zune would be a 2, with 15% falling into both 1 and 3. How does this work in the new system? Does this mean I 'love' 85% of the stuff on there? That certainly isn't the case. Does not selecting either count as a vote for 'like'?

This is the worst decision I've heard.  None of the other "upgrades" in this firmware is worth the "downgrade" of heart / unheart.  Thanks for converting me back to the iPod.  Hope anyone that put the Zune on top of CNET's most wanted list, finds a way to undo that vote until MSFT makes a change to this crappy idea.

Perhaps broken heart, heart, and REALLY BIG HEART for the three-state version?

I have never used the 5 star rating system because I never found it helpful.  Maybe I'll try the like/don'tlike, but I think it'll just be a non-feature like it's always been for me.

This really doesn't make any sense at all. A non-rating is not the same as a "like" rating, as it's not rated. I just got a 30 gb zune, and I love the 5-star rating system. I don't think I would buy a new one with such simplistic ratings; there's no way to manage my library that way.

Also, is upgrading to the new software/firmware going to overwrite my old ratings? Is it going to rewrite my tags? You need to address this and warn users if it's the case, since rewriting someone's library could destroy hours and hours of work.

Cesar - what is the Zune team going to do to replace the 100's of hours I've spent listening to and rating my music.  Glad that the team has so little interest in the users' experience (including users like me that preordered the original zune - have the research team ask me the next time they want to do something ridiculous like this).  This isn't Last.fm, Slacker or Pandora.  I'm not telling a service to not play a semi-random song again.  This is music that I've personally chosen to put on my Zune.  If I don't want it there, I won't put it there.  There isn't the random factor that you have with Internet based services.  If the team wants a way to recommend or not recommend a song to other members of the social, that's one thing.  But do not take away my ability to rank my music.  There is a big difference between personal rankings and recommendations.

I agree with some comments have the ZMP be heart/broken heart and leave our downloaded library as a 5 star scale for further refinement.

I don't use the current rating system, and I don't plant to use the new one either, because as many people have pointed out-- I don't keep "bad" music floating around. If I don't like it-- I delete just delete it.

That said, a 5-Star rating system is definitely better, if I were going to use it, because I definitely have songs that I like better than others.

When you have, let's say, 2000 songs, and 1000 are by a total of 10 artists (what can you say-- you really like those artists and have the collections), you're bound to have a lot of preferred songs. When you have playlists going, you are going to want to hear the preferred songs first.

How many times do you have a list on Shuffle and have to keep hitting Next Track because you don't feel like listening to the song that comes on?

OK, here's an extension of thought...

I checked out iTunes, and they list popularity on a sliding scale much greater than 1-5.  They are determining the popularity of certain songs in other ways - downloads/purchases, probably.  I'm guessing that the 2-way communication that's coming to Zune will determine the popularity based on the number of plays/hearts/some variant or combination.

Up until now, the 'rankings' of individual tracks on the ZMP was based on user ratings, and displayed on a sliding scale much greater than 5 stars (4.1 stars, 4.5 stars, .5 stars, etc.) In other words, open up an album, see immediately which track is the most popular.  This feature is IMMENSELY valuable.

I'm rambling now - bear with me.

Take Chumbawumba.

On iTunes, this song is considered as popular as it gets.  Pegged. Maxed out.

Really?  Today?  Seriously?

I think that Zune is moving in the direction of introducing a dynamic element to the ratings of tracks, which in real-time will determine the popularity of tracks based on what people are listening to RIGHT NOW.

When you think of it in these terms, it makes sense - a 5 star track today (for me, Spoon, the Underdog) is different than a 5 star track a year ago (Silversun Pickups, Lazy Eye). But these star ratings are dynamic for me - changing all the time.  If the ratings become dynamic, 3 stars (up, middle, down) makes as much sense - probably more - than 5 stars.

This must have something to do with the social element that Zune is trying to bring in to the ecosystem.

That said, this is a risky move, and I will miss the 5 stars, for sure, unless these dynamic-social elements are introduced to replace the existing system.

I love the new rating system, it reminds me of last.fm. I can't wait for the new update.

How about a five heart system? I'm mean seriously, let's *not* take the apple route and give your users credit for knowing what stars mean. At least give the choice and leave that existing meta data alone! Another inconsistency is Vista's explorer, are you going to dumb it down to a Hate/Like system too??? I know the Zune team wants to do the right thing, so please listen to all these comments!

Some people mentioned that the ones who like the 5 star system are '"hardcore" whiners'.

Well I can see that some people don't care about it and that is fine.

JC (see a few comments above) didn't even know that smart playlists existed. That's okay, too.

The ones who know about the smart playlists and use them will get hit very hard by this new rating decision.  

Please make it a novice/advanced option.

I should chime in on this as well: The one thing I'm really fearing about the new update is the rating system. The 5-star system is a very functional system. The 'extra 3 ratings' are not excess, they provide me with the following system:

5-Stars: Excellent, the best music I have heard

4-Stars: Very good, this music is better than the majority

3-Stars: Good, this is the normal rating for most of my music

2-Stars: Barely tolerable, there is something slightly redeeming about it, but barely.

1-Star : I'm deleting this music on the next sync.

The fewest number of 'ratings' I could functionally work with is a 4 star system (I could take away one of the high end stars and it would work nearly the same) but all other stars are needed for me to navigate my music!

If the Zune Team truly believes that the heart system will encourage more people to rate their music, than can that be the default system, WITH the option to change to the 5-star system?

Please, at the very least, include both ways, so users like ourselves can have the 5-star system!

For what it's worth, I ran this by my wife and she thinks it's great idea. But we've got two zunes hooked up to the same library. I'm trying to figure out what happens when I like a song and my wife hates it.

I agree, it's a bad move, either have both options or only the 5 star, I like many others download full albums and mark songs as I listen to them, 1 gets deleted, 5 is kept. Everything in between changes on more listens.

:(

Please put back in the 5 star.

So far, it seems you guys haven't changed anything based on the concerns voiced in the comments in this blog (clock, gapless, among other things).  Since this is apparently not the place to go to get something done about our music player of choice, where can we go to ACTUALLY get something done?

Love my Zune and I'm still excited for my Zune 80, even though i dread losing hours of rating songs.

I never used the star system and probably won't use the new system.

Either way is fine by me.

Re-Stated for Emphasis

"I don't use the current rating system, and I don't plant to use the new one either, because as many people have pointed out-- I don't keep "bad" music floating around. If I don't like it-- I delete just delete it.

That said, a 5-Star rating system is definitely better, if I were going to use it, because I definitely have songs that I like better than others.

When you have, let's say, 2000 songs, and 1000 are by a total of 10 artists (what can you say-- you really like those artists and have the collections), you're bound to have a lot of preferred songs. When you have playlists going, you are going to want to hear the preferred songs first.

How many times do you have a list on Shuffle and have to keep hitting Next Track because you don't feel like listening to the song that comes on?"

Wow - what a terrible idea.  I was seriously considering upgrading to a zune and this could almost kill it for me.

See, my system depends on 5 star ratings both on the player and in WMP:

5 - Classic, must have on player

4 - OK, but relegated to PC

3 - unrated, status-pending

2 - children's music (parents will understand)

1 - Crap, to be deleted from PC

I am continually evaluating new music so this system is invaluable.  Please, MS, don't be stupid.

What a horrible idea. Way too simplistic. Like it or hate it? If I hate it I won't have it on my freaking Zune! Gosh, I really wanted a Zune but this could be a deal breaker for me. I use this system to organize my music and your taking it away. It seems like most people on here hate it too so please change it back. Or better yet give us the option of either or. Come on this is ridiculus. Listen to your fans!!!

I don't think this is a good idea...There's a difference between a heart and broken heart...and the numbers 2,3,4 can make a big difference from 1 and 5.  Searching for music online is important, and looking at hearts cannot identify the true rating of a song...Please change it back, I'm switching to the Zune from the iPod for a lot of reasons...This change won't convince me not to get one, but it'll bug me!

No freakin way. I hate this and by the looks of it most other people do too. Only real Zune fans come to this website and if they hate the general public will loathe it. This a huge mistake and right before Christmas. Not smart at all. Don't fix what aint broken as they say.

What?  Are you serious?  This is about as bad an idea as an equalizer that is not user adjustable...

On second thought, perhaps I shouldn't be surprised with this after all.  :(

Ditto to Jordy above.

I have to say that I hate the new rating system.  It breaks all my autoplay lists!  Like many others here I use the 5 star system to decide what I want to play on my zune.  A Like/Dislike system just isn't flexable enough.  And for those saying just you unrated for the mediocore song you want to here once in a while, how do you destinguish between new unrated songs and the 1000's of mideocore songs out of a library of 10,000 songs?  

Please consider our input and go back to a 5 start system, or make it an option to use either system.

I really don't like  the new system!  Please, leave it in the way its or at least gives  option to  pick what system do you want  to use.

I whole heartedly agree with John West.

If you were to go with hearts, atleast a 3 level system would of made SOME sense: broken heart, half-heart and full-heart. But the new system is SOOO flawed. What happens if I don't hate the song but just think it's OK?

Taste in music isn't black and white. There's often some grey in between

This new system is really lame. Give us an option MS

What is wrong with different people interpreting the 5 star system in different ways anyway? I really don't understand this one...

@eli, I also thought simialr to you. But you can in fact still do most of what you want with new system.

5 - Classic, must have on player

- create  a playlist. it is unlikely that you suddenly listen to a song and it becomes a classic. rating is more for dynamic playlists.

4 - OK, but relegated to PC

- mark 4 as like

3 - unrated, status-pending

- as you said, don't rate them in new system

2 - children's music (parents will understand)

- mark broken heart

1 - Crap, to be deleted from PC

- flag them and delete them when you connect next time to PC

@eptin,

similar comments apply as for eli

I think this is another example of the Zune team thinking they can get away with Apple marketing.  See Apple can get away with saying something is great while it actually being utterly lame.  They can get away with lying compeletly to everybody.  I'm not sure HOW they managed it but their marketing machine is so great they can charge what they like for any old white piece of crap.   I imagine it's because their core products are so strong.  

Zune can't do that because it never started out a strong product, if you want to be able to convince educated customers that what your doing is anything other than removing something that they like, you first need to start off with them loving everything that you do!  You remove much of that loyalty (certainly from me who starte off hardcore) over the last year, and this is just another way of squishing it further.  You haven't hired any PR people from SONY recently have you?

I use Windows Media Center Edition (MCE) daily on the xbox 360 listening to my over 10,000 song collection.  While working on the PC, I use Windows Media Player (WMP) to listen to the same songs with the same rankings.  MCE and WMP share the same database.

Either using WMP or MCE I rank the songs.  I also have an auto-playlist based upon song ranks (4&5 stars only).  I even created an unranked auto-playlist to help me know what songs I haven’t ranked yet.  If I rank a song on WMP it’ll show up ranked in MCE and vise-versa.

I wanted to get the Zune thinking here’s the best way to listen to my music on the go, since it’s MS, they’ll have the same rankings and autoplaylists.  But now, they won’t.  The ipod is actually more “connected” to my WMP and MCE than MS’s own Zune…how weird is that?

At first blush this sounded like a bad idea but honestly it makes sense.  I rarely really care if a song has 3, 4 or 5 stars, I just know I like it plus over the years I've changed what the stars mean to me so half my library is rated one way while the rest another.  Even my auto-playlists were basically "anything 3 stars or above" which is basically just "I heart this".

While the music power users may lose something I think the majority of people will gain.  This system is already in effect at Pandora with the thumbs up/thumbs down system and it works great.

I use the ratings only for autoplaylists.  One star does not mean that I don't like a song, it is just one of five categories for organizing my music for playlists.

It would be nice if you could turn the new feature off under options.

Cesar say something. :)

Met, ok, will do :)

Overall, I love having a place where people can express their honest thoughts about Zune. It's been interesting combing through the comments on this particular aspect of Zune (good bad and ugly).

Folks should be happy to know that I've presented the feedback from this post to the product team.

As you know, this blog isn't the only venue we have to talk to our users, but it is an important source of info for the product team! So thanks for commenting.  

I can partially agree with the reasoning with the new rating system: It's easier.

So easy, I'm sure just about anybody could use it.

But the old 5 star system still has its uses for a good half (or less) of the users.

Can't there be some kind of happy medium? Maybe a setting within both the Zune device and the Zune Software itself?

So, for instance, power users can still have their autoplaylists by the 5 star. And other users could opt to keep the new system and use that one.

And, should there be any transfer between differing rating systems, you and the Zune team have already figured it out yourselves: anything 3 or higher star becomes heart and below 2 becomes broken heart.

And obviously, this transfer works either Zune to Zune or Zune to computer, should there be any conflict with having two different rating systems from one to the other.

So, instead of this issue being a: this is what it will be...

How about: here is what it can be, take a pick, and switch whenever you feel like...

Sure, more work for you guys, sorry, but at least it will work for everyone, rather having people on opposite sides. Over a rating system...

For me, this new system is just too one sided and there doesn't seem to be anyway to have a "middle" rating.

This blows!  This breaks a core functioanlity of the way I listen to my music.  I think that at very least there should still be an option to use a 5 star system.

As a hardcore Stumble Upon user, I say Thumbs up!  Or er... hearts?

By the looks of it, you either love or hate the the love or hate rating system.

Although I like the idea, I also see the point of allowing options.

No sir, I don't like it.

Well I guess I'll weigh in too.

I never use the 5 star rating on my Zune itself but I do use the 5 star system when searching for music to buy or download.  If it's rated a 5 I give it a listen if it's rated a 1 I generally pass.

This is something I think is crazy. M$ don't try and dumb down your user base. If they were mindless sheep without an opinion they would of bought an iPod.

It seems the vast majority of the worlds megacorps are thinking of new ways to annoy their customers and shoot themselves in the foot at every turn.

Honestly, I have never used the Star System in anything. However, I have used the "Love/Hate" system on LAST.FM a whole lot. It is just much easier to me to think "i like it, or I dont". But then again, i wouldn't put something i dont like on my zune, lol.

The elimination of a five star system is definitately a deal breaker for me. My next move is delete the Zune 80 from my Amazon wish list.

i think the new systems ok, probably wont use it anyway as i listen to albums or playlists i create myself.

Which leads me to my question...

Can we save quick playlists on the new zune? PLEASE SAY YES

bakers - yes, you can create quicklists on zune (like you did before)

This is very last.fm like, and I for one are happy about it - I have been using 1 star for Hate it, and 4 or 5 for love it all along and have auto-playlists based on the star rating.

Sorry, but this should be user-configurable.

What happens to the metadata? Does it just store 0 for don't like and 5 for love?

My own rating system is basically:

1 = To be deleted eventually

2 = I like it enough to keep it around, but will never probably listen to it casually.

3 = I like it, and plan on listening to it occaisionally

4 = Better than good. Don't mind hearing it often.

5 = Hands down, my favorite track(s) of all time.

The whole new system obviously breaks my system. I may just never upgrade my Zune software/firmware :( Really a bummer.

Cesar - how does someone get into these user tests?  I have a few things I would like to see and think I could give some good feedback.

I know I would like to be able to view all the properties of my tracks (usually I find the only time I need this info is when I am not using the Zune software, but sharing with my friends in the car).

Also some type of astist card with a little bit of BIO type info like I get in WMP.  That would be sweet and allow you to showcase the screen a little better.

Lastly - what about a few EQ Visualizations?

Focus groups are involved too much in Microsoft product development.  That philosophy has to change from top to bottom within the whole biz.  Yes, focus groups can have an impact.  But, common sense must override.  Removing features, especially features that are rooted in the "core music experience," just doesn't add up.  I say remove instead of change because this will virtually eliminate my use of auto playlists.  I hope this is not a sign of things to come.  I thought the zune team was starting to go the whole organic route, with the artsy and creative flavor.  But, if focus groups have this much impact on decision making, it sounds like the suits are still number crunching to determine what's best for Zune.  These types of decisions don't jell with the whole "for the people, by the people vibe" that most of the marketing emits.      

SHOCK! Total shock.

I can't believe a decision like this was ever made. I can understand the need for an "easier" system for more casual users, but you are totally abandoning those users that have built catalogs of songs (9000+ myself) and spent countless hours rating and organizing their music in a way that works for them.

When the new features were announced, I viewed every one of them as a plus and was even suprised by a few (I've recently gotten into Media Center and was looking forward to having the ability to watch my recorded TV shows on my Zune). I am also approaching the 30GB limit of my current Zune and was going to purchase the new 80GB when it was available.

I can honestly tell you now, I will not be upgrading to the new Zune software (as much as I want the new features), because of this decision. I have spent too much time and effort getting my music library to work the way I want and I won't give up that flexibility.

It might be time to start looking at other alternatives again.

I agree with most of the comments suggesting it is a step back.  I am in the market for a new device, and would love it to be a zune, it has a much larger features list, however, software is something I'm still on the fence about.  If the rating system is reduced to "like, dislike" I feel there isn't enough room.  there needs to be a middle ground, no stars for haven't listened to, and then 3 is average, 4 is good, 5 is awesome.  I understand the reasoning behind the like dislike, however, I feel including stars wouldn't be too hard of a software fix.  Pleeease fix it, I am really pulling for zune and would like to purchase one next week.  

Also, I feel if the problem with the five star rating system is the fact that people don't understand it, why not just explain each star when rolling over each value on the computer, or rating on the device.

1: "do not like" or "to be deleted"

2: "average".  

3: "good"

4: "better than good"

5: "favorite song"

if a song is labeled as "Don't Like", why was it in the Zune in the first place?

it's kinda of a simple rating...I mean, of course every song is gonna be "Like It", why else would it be on the Zune?

Cesar,

I think I will pass on this version 2.0 of the Zune, better luck on the next version.

I must complement the development team on the following new features; your market share will increase but your competitor will not decrease:

   1) Improving the battery life

   2) Better Size on the 80GB model

   3) Creating a flash product

   4) Remote Sync

   5) Recording TV using media center

   6) Focus of Audio Quality

If you are interested in customer feedback and beta testers for designing version 3.0 please feel free contact me.

To find me you can use Microsoft Human Resources, I designed software for Microsoft from 1987-1997 and successfully squashed your current competitor.

Yeah, have to confess to some really ugly comments that have clearly been moderated out :s - I do get quite frustrated when it seems that I am getting penalised for adopting something  believed in that then seems to systemicaticvally disappoint.

Apologies for not biting my tongue mroe but you have to understand that all us non-US people see is Zune once again basically saying the rest of the world isn't important, so long as the US gets Zune, everyone else can wait.  I could just about understand the 1st year but to do it a second time is just plain rude.    And this rating system nonsense is just yet another example of MS completely missing the point of WHY people bought Zunes in the first place.

Ces, thanks for continuing this blog and listening to us the initial adopters of the Zune.

If anyone has yet to figure out, we are the 'old' focus group, we're the experienced users so we know the ins and outs of the current Zune. The 'new' groups encompass a broader, sometimes less tech savy group than us who may need a simpler approach for somethings. I'm not saying new users are less intelligent, just that "ease of use" and "usability" seem to be high on the scale. This is not to disregard the 'old' group, but hopefully ease things. The problem, of course, is that that data is coming from 'new' users and not us who, for the most part use the 5 star system for fun, and especially for playlists. I propose a more practical solution: Since the new system has been tested, used and is being implemented - keep it (like it was going to change :)), but in the options enable an advanced setting to use the 5 star system instead of the heart one. So both sets of users can benefit without a massive code rewrite seeings as the new software will sort of translate your 5 star rating into the heart one - an upgrade could be released say around year end to kind of reenable the 5 star system for those who wish to use it. And I guess you'd have to do the same for the firmware too...

What do you think?

Cesar

How do I rate (GOOD - BAD - UGLY) with the new rating?

You see some of my songs are Good (5), others are Bad (2), and others are just straight Ugly (1)

Zune: "You Make it You"

A love it/hate it system works fine on an internet radio social site like last.fm or pandora where they're building a profile to determine whether you'd like a given song streamed to you. I can see where the team (mistakenly) correlated last.fm's social bit with Zune's "welcome to the social" slogan. But, as has been stated many times already here, Zune is not streaming new music for us to enjoy and perhaps discover. It's a device we're carrying around, and if we "hate it" we wouldn't bother taking up the space on the device with it.

why would i put something in my zune that i dont like?

Just jumping into the fray to agree with those who don't want to see their 5 star system go away.  I think dsharp is dead on, there's room for both, without alienating a whole bunch of users who rely on their ratings to organize their music.  

This is like logitech taking away multi-button press macros from their harmony software.  If you weren't using it, you'll never care, but if you were, logitech broke your remote.  

A "bookmark/avoid" system is neat, but really gimps the functionality people already had.  

Bad idea!  95% of the time when I'm listening to music it's using the star ratings.  This may work for a 5 year old, but not for advanced users.  Updates are supposed to add features and make things better not take away features.

never really rated my songs.

Also, I should also add that I'll be more likely to use the rating system now with the new heart system than with the old star system.

One improvement I've always been looking for in auto playlists is the ability to say, "Make a playlist with all my 3-5 star music but favor the higher rated ones in shuffle mode." For example a 5 star song might be played in the shuffle 2 times for every one play of a 3 star song.

This oversimplified love it/hate it makes that feature impossible.

After further reflection I've decided I really like the binary system. It did seem limiting at first, but I realized -- as long as the rating was per user -- you could do some real interesting things:

Autolist of songs my wife and I both like for when we are together.

Autolist of songs I like but she hates for when I'm alone.

List of songs Christgau likes but I hate -- for my reconsideration

Hillary likes, but Rudy hates

Rudy likes, but Hillary hates

Paris hates, Brittney hates, and Lindsay hates

Prince likes, Townshend likes, but Bolton hates

It could be fun.

Please do not remove the 5 star rating system. If you do, then I'll be forced to use iTunes or WMP II for everything except syncing. How can you read such an overwhelming negative response like this and plan to move forward with such a half-baked idea?

- Rick

Did you guys use the same focus group that thought New Coke would be a success? This decision will alienate tons of users who have put many hours of careful thought and consideration into their song ratings.

This is rotten.

i think that this is a terrible idea and will offend and upset a HUGE amount of people including me who have spent countless hours rating my music on a scale of 1-5. If you are going to implement it at least have 2 modes as someone above me said, the heart and the star system. The idea of all my time of rating my music infuriates me to the deepest levels of my soul.....i do not like to be infuriated.....

I don't own a Zune, yet. But since the moment I heard that the Zune 2 was coming, I've gone on a HUGE recategorizing/retagging/album art-hunting/rating spree in Windows Media Player 11. I just know that I want a Zune this holiday. My music collection is pretty big (>65 GB), and a 5-star rating system is integral to my music experience.

Now, I'm assuming my music information will carry over from WMP to ZMP. But I need (note, it's not a WANT) the 5-star system on my portable to match with my library. The loss of resolution between Unrated,0,1 and Unrated,1,2,3,4,5 is just too big to ignore.

To those wondering why any music below 3-stars would be on the Zune in the first place: Sometimes, when a music collection spans several months of listening time, you simply don't cover all of it. You shuffle through, and rate stuff on the fly. Plus, ratings are in flux. There might be songs that are just on that border between 2 and 3 stars. I want the song in my collection, but there's a time and/or a place to listen to it.

I know it's too late to do anything about it before launch, but you could make this happen in the very first firmware update. Please, please do. And I'm sincerely hoping that the old ratings are preserved, even if not shown (yet). I don't want to lose all those ratings.

Keep the stars.  

Oh, and I've read people saying that if they don't like a song, they just delete it.   How do you do that!?!???   I am not the only person who put music on this computer.  I would like to have music on my computer that is not put on my Zune.  And what about those videos that came with the Zune?  How do I get rid of those?  I very much don't like some of them.

Thanks for your help.

Hello Caesar,

I've been a faithful reader, but this is my first comment.  I just purchased a Zune 30 for a great price, and am dissapointed to hear of this new change.  Would it be possible to include both options in Settings?  I see the advantages of a like\don't like system for more casual listeners, but like many of the posters here, I depend greatly on the 5 star system to sift through my pretty big collection.

Thanks and good luck in the coming weeks :-)

This is so lame. At least leave it to users to select which rating system they would like to use. Just put a checkbox to properties on zune software and that's it.

Cesar, I know you won't ignore this 150+comments... I'm not saying that in the design process you didn't take care of this matter, and I know you guys spent a lot of time thinking about the rating system.

But, you can't over simplify the rating system just because it will be easier for a broader audience.. You can't forget the user that takes more time to hand pick their preferred songs, who choose which song is perfect, which one is good, etc... You can't leave behind the advanced users for the sake of the newer ones.

I'm not saying pick this or pick that, I just hope that all these comments will be enough for you guys to give it a second thought. I understand the arguments that you give in this post.. But, what if maybe, you did miss something while in the design process?

In the end, just my opinion. User configurable rating system: Stars or hearts, that would please everybody, though I know it could be hard to implement... But, I trust you, Zune team!

Best Regards and thanks for reading.

Just when I was tempted to actually purchase a Zune.

Getting rid of the 5-star system is not an option for me.

:-/ Disappointed.

I'll just chime in too...I really don't like this idea.  I use the 5-star system all the time and it really lets me differentiate between my vast variety of music.  Even a three-tiered system would be much better than dumbing it all the way down to a "like" or "don't like" system.

Very disappointing. :(

Wow, this is a HORRIBLE idea.

Here's how I use the current rating system:

I have an auto playlist for songs that are 4&5 --my favorites.

I also have an autoplaylist for unrated songs; songs I have yet to review.

I also sync entire albums to my device; except I exclude songs that I have given a 1-star rating.

Basically, if you must replace the current 6-state system, there needs to be at least four states: unrated(no stars), rated unliked(one star), rated indifferent(2-3 stars), rated liked(4-5 stars).

A binary system, to me, is counter intuitive. You're measuring a human's emotional response, not some sort of robotic thumbs up, thumbs down approach.

ACK! I can't believe that you are going to ruin all of my work. This is rediculous. I may even NOT download the update, if this is the way it's going to be.

I can't believe you wouldn't give the users an option here. How hard is that?

As a programmer, I can tell you how hard--it's not.

Keep the 6-state system in the background, and change the interface to the two heart system as an option on the front end, and store the heart values as either 1 heart for dislike or 4 stars for liked.

Sigh. I am so frustrated right now. Your focus groups suck. Hell, focus groups suck in general; read the book Blink by Malcom Gladwell for more examples.

I REFUSE TO DOWNLOAD ANY UPDATE UNTIL YOU GUYS CHANGE THIS BACK.

Big mistake.  Assuming you know what users want and then taking a great feature away is a tragic mistake I hope you will learn from.  Make your product as rich as possible, offer the necessary levels of interface from beginner to advanced user, then watch what the world does with it.  Never, I repeat NEVER take away a feature others have learned to use and depend on.  BIG MISTAKE. dk

In another case of Microsoft not understanding how to integrate products, it seems the Zune’s will use

In another case of Microsoft not understanding how to integrate products, it seems the Zune’s will...

I am staggered by this decision.  So much so, that I can't beleive it's not a try on.  I have all my music tagged in the 5 star system much as others have indicated above, but it also has another purspose.  While I syc all but 1-star to my Zune, I only sync 4 & 5 star to my SmartPhone due to its limited capacity.  Same will happen if/when I ever get a Zune 4 or 8.  I was o looking forward to the update, but if this is for real I will have to reconsider whether to apply it.

So the question that needs answering is: will the Zune auto-update? Does a firmware update also require a software update? If the plan hasn't changed, I don't want any updates and no update better be pushed on me (which Microsoft has been doing with several products lately)? Will there be any warning?

For a long time, the 5 star rating system meant nothing to me, but then I began to subscribe to Rhapsody, and it's beautiful and all so clear. They're smart, those Rhapsody people (at least in some respects. They're software is terrible in Vista.) When you hover over a clickable, rate-this-song star, it tells you exactly what that number of stars ought to represent(Just okay; not bad; pretty good; really good; and great). They also have a "no sign" (circle with a line through it), so its actually a 6 level system. This system, it quickly became apparent to me, is beautiful, wonderful, perfect. There was inconsistency in my ratings before, which has been forever banished.

But even when I couldn't make use of the system before, a dumbing down would still yet have been DOWNRIGHT INSULTING! I feel like they're giving me a superior smile, patting lightly on the head, and saying "There, there. We'll make the bad old stars go away. They won't hurt you anymore." The secret to good marketing is to make the customer feel intelligent, not to cater to stupidity.

This decision makes me want break something.

bummer,  rating music on the go (with 5 stars) was something I looked forward to.  As a workaround, I guess I could maintain 5 playlists, (5stars, 4stars, etc.) but that's not cool.  It probably involves more clicking around to add songs to a playlist, right?

Why couldn't you just have a "simpleton mode" where a heart would be translated automatically into 5 stars while a broken heart would go to 1 star?

I've been pondering this change even more since I posted yesterday, and my thoughts haven't become any more positive.  Music is about passion and emotions.  You just can't measure or express that depth of feeling with on/off.  I know this is digital music, but that's taking it too far.  Given that the change is coming, I suppose we will have to set up manual playlists to emulate the old star system.  Heck, I guess I will just call them "1 Star", "2 Star" etc and instead of rating a song I will add it to my "star" playlists.

And what's with the hearts?  I can see who MS thinks is their target audience - teenage girls, clearly.  A broken heart for a song I don't like?  Oh, please.  What am I?  Like, totally 13?

If you really must inflict this dumbed-down system on us, is it possible to add customised like/hate symbols?  Perhaps sports car/train wreck, Zune logo/Apple logo, maybe even just green dot/red dot.  It all means the same thing and would add a level of personalisation at least.

Not yet over my annoyance, but at least I feel better now.

I wrote this for iTunes/iPod: http://filebox.vt.edu/users/channum/files/smartlist_management_v5.1.pdf

I've got no idea how many people have downloaded it in total, but I do know that I regularly receive comments praising it, and many regulars on iLounge hawk it to others. For those too lazy to download it and read the couple of dozen pages, it describes ways to use smartlists and song criteria, of which ratings are a major part, to customise smartlists to create your own, personalised "radio stations" with user specified and weighted composition (e.g. 40% 5 star, 30% 4 star, 15% random, 15% least played). As an extreme example, I'm able to manage a 170GB audio library of about 30,000 songs with 100% automation on a 8GB iPod nano.

Lately, I've been rather disillusioned with Apple due to their botched support of smartlists on the new gen of iPods/phones. With all the hype, I'd been hoping the new Zune might represent Microsoft finally getting their act together and advancing past the iPod/iTunes interface...

And then I read this, wth? I was hoping I'd see something where the Zune would actually beat the iPod for what you could do with smartlists - it's not like Apple's put any effort into the system for the past three years. But, I guess not.

People with lots of music need ways to make management of it easier, and this will not accomplish that. By rating my gargantuan library and making sure that all tags are correct I am, in turn, able to always craft any mix of any sort I want with just a bit of fiddling with some smartlists. Take away ratings and I'd be screwed. Take away ratings (and possibly even smartlists if another Zune blog is to be believed) and this is one iPod power user who cannot defect even if he'd like to.

I defected from being a Mac user in 1998 to Microsoft because I found, in spite of the hype, that it was Windows, not the Mac, that let me have more control over my user experience. I would just as soon repeat the story today, but, for that to happen, MS actually has to deliver a better user experience, and things like the removal of the ratings system are a clear sign that this isn't the case yet.

I think it is pretty clear that this is about the worst thing you could do.  I started with an Ipod but wanted subscription service so I switched to Urge.  I loved Urge--it had everything I wanted and it just worked.  Then it merged in with Rhapsody and I bought a Sansa because it was supposed to work great with Rhapsody, but I found Rhapsody to be a huge nightmare.  When I heard Zune would have podcasts and the Zune pass, I knew this was the place for me, but underlying all my music listening is my use of the rating system.  I love everything else about Zune, but I refuse to use a service that restricts me to saying "I love it" or "I hate it" to my music.  At least give people a chance to turn on the "I'm too stupid to figure out how to rate something from 1 to 5" rather than making it mandatory.

I am completely dependent on the 5 star system for organizing my music, not having it makes my music collection completely unmanageable. I won't be upgrading my software.

Let me be simple, I will never use a player that does not use a 5 star system. I use it with smart playists...ahem...and to organize and track my music. Basically what MS is saying is that users are not adept to figuring out how to use the ratings system on their own by oversimplifying it, what part of 1-5 do people not understand? I learned that in Kindergarten, having 5 stars is better than one. I will be downgrading to the old firmware and software. If Zune does not go back the the 5 star system oh yeah and implement a smart playlist feature in the new software I will buy and Ipod touch when a 30gig or higher is introduced.

Well looks like my auto playlists are now broken! I was actually ranking my favorite songs from 5 stars to 1 star. Anything that wasn't ranked I considered a song I didn't like. Now half the music in my playlist (2-3 stars?) is considered music I don't like??? This sucks!!!!

Im totally unsatidfied.. i cant group my albums by dragging and dropping anymore.. theyt tooke out the cool features and just started something completly new... i love the layout on the handheld but on my puter i cant stand it.. its very aggravating >;(

I'm going to disagree on this new change... The heart system is completely disatisfying...

I think there should be both, 5 stars, and love/hate it... and it should be put in the options to be able to change it...

I like most of the new things they've put in. but I cannot stand this new heart system, PLEASE change it back or add the old system back...

As the Arcade section of the Xbox 360 Dashboard slowly matured, it sprouted some pretty neat features

This is terrible.  Why don't they just make this a user setting?  

[ ] Hearts (default)

[ ] Stars

[ ] Rating field

I use a rating system of 1-10 and use an mp3 tagging application to modify the Rating field of the mp3 tag.

This is terrible.  Why don't they just make this a user setting?  

[ ] Hearts (default)

[ ] Stars

[ ] Rating field

I use a rating system of 1-10 and use an mp3 tagging application to modify the Rating field of the mp3 tag.

I am outraged at the change. You can't give functionality, then take it back in an update. Finally we got auto-playlists back, but I'm still at v1.3 because we don't have 5-star ratings. Most people who don't use the system simply don't rate their music at all. They are not going to use any system. Having a sync/don't sync (heear/borken-heart) is fine, but don't take away our rating system. (2 options is not "rating")

Give the users options, I personally prefer the 5 star option and now i'm either forced to change the way in which I use ratings or switch to another device.  Since you've already converted the old rating system over how hard would it be to use that same functionality and  allow for conversion back and forth???

This is like a Kurt Vonnegat jr. book I read once.  You're making all of dumb to meet the needs of people who can't figure out a 1-5 numbering system.  If I told you that you should tell me how much you like it on a scale from 1 to 5 where 5 is very much and 1 is not at all, it's not that hard to figure out.

This is like those charts in doctor's offices where they show 10 faces on a wall to describe how much pain you're feeling.  How about 5 smilie faces indicating different levels of like/dislike?

This is like making guys sit down and pee because too many of them can't hit the bowl.  Some us have to sit down, but you shouldn't make everyone else sit.

hey with my zune dont work in mexico

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