Music, culture, and the inside scoop from Cesar Menendez,
a Microsoft employee working on Zune - Microsoft's new music project.

November 06, 2007

Like it; Don’t Like It – The New Zune Rating System

In this year’s update to Zune, you’ll find a brand new rating system. We’re moving from the 0-5 star rating to a simpler, more straightforward rating system: “like” (symbolized by a heart), and “don’t like” (symbolized by a broken heart).

Now for the backstory: I spoke with some folks on the design/dev team about this and picked up some of the reasoning and thinking behind the new rating system. Last year, we extensively tested the 0-5 star rating system with users – both on the current system and their potential usage -  and learned a few interesting things. First, there was a great degree of confusion between different ratings for different users – e.g. a 3 star rating for one user might mean “I love this song” but for another user, it could mean “this song is just ok.” And when we asked users if they would rate content using the existing system, 90% said that they wouldn’t. So we had to figure out a way to implement a rating system that users both understood and would be likely to use. We tested several different variations, and in the end users gravitated towards the heart/broken heart system, as it put track ratings into more human terms. Hence, the new rating system.

It’s important to note here, too that the new rating system is transferable. That is, ratings that you had in your existing (pre-November 13 update) will automatically convert to the new system – anything below 2 stars will display as a broken heart, and anything above will display as a heart.

 |  Tuesday, November 06, 2007 7:55 PM  |  174 Comments

Comments

If you would like to receive an email when updates are made to this post, please register here

Subscribe to this post's comments using RSS

Chris

What about smart playlists?!  That's one of the main reasons I switched to WMP11 and soon to be the Zune software.  (That was before iTunes added auto playlists.

can't there be both???  (Somehow...?)

Matt

My problem with this is, if I didn't like a song, why would I have put it on my Zune in the first place?

John West

Ughhh... not good.  This is what valuing focus groups over your real users can do.  So what if it's not consistent between users?  It doesn't need to be.  It simply needs to be consistent and flexible for *each individual's needs*.  You could have simply had a basic and advanced mode.  In basic mode, the heart would = 5 and the broken heart would = 1.  In advance mode, users could choose 1-5 themselves.  Problem solved.  Why take something away that other find so very useful?  There are times where I just want to listen to my most favorite music (5), and other times I want a little more variety (3-5).  And sometimes I just want everything (1-5).  And you could be creative with sync rules with the 1-5 system.

Come on!  You've still got until November 13th to put it back.  Please???

John  

sportsunit

I'm just going to be straight up and tell you guys that this is not a good move.  I would hope that because of the degree that you value customer feedback as opposed to focus group data, you will listen to us.  Changing the rating system will break one of the most useful mechanisms of the music software.  When you have Zune Pass and a library with over 10,000 songs, auto playlists are almost a necessity.  The 5 star ratings system makes auto playlists an incredibly useful feature.  A like it or don't like it rating system essentially makes this unusable.  

Now, you guys can listen or ignore us....but don't say we didn't say anything when you get a well-deserved, heavy dosage of backlash for this.

P.S. there are some things you just can't dumb down...

Neil...!

Seriously dont like it. i didnt use it a lot in the first place but occasionally i would and it was very easy to understand and useful. Ur not going to have a song in ur library that u dislike so u need a middle option.... the heart thing is just WAY to basic to work!

Dan D

I think the new system is better. I either like something or dont. but usually if i dont like it its not on my zune unless its a whole album because i dont like incomplete albums. im so excited for the new software. ill just be able to leave my zune in my truck (90% of the use is in it with the transmitter) download stuff on my pc and sync it before work while my trucks warming up in the morning. this is awesome. what a perfect way to start my new job next week.

Mel

I like it. I'ts more fun.

John

I never really saw a point to rating my music because generally my taste fluctuates too much, I could see myself using this new system though.

DavidMx

hey cesar great news! I possibly have someone buyin my Zune, but i'm not going anywhere, because  november 20th i'm going to the USA! Tucson Az it's like 3 hours from here so I'm gettin a Zune 80 =)

about the rating.. do you want the truth? I simply dont care ;P with just a recently added and the quick playlist i'm fine ;)

De México Pa'l Mundo!

Brian Hughes

The rating system sounds good. I guess I'm curious if there's a big purpose behind it? I remember I asked this at the meet-up too. Essentially, something which I think would be interesting is if Zune had a built-in playlist for songs I like. And then when I also was playing my entire library in a random mode, I would like it if the Zune software picked songs I liked way more often than ones I didn't like, or not even include them at all.

Nov 13 can't come soon enough!

The Baker

I'm going to have to agree with the vast vast majority of sentiments expressed about this issue. Microsoft has a great track record of comprehensively researching and studying issues and options. In this case I think you guys are taking a step that is quite extreme in it departure from the system commonly used.

As a Zune Pass member I rely HEAVILY on the 5 star rating system. I generally will only listen to music with between 4 and 5 stars and will then choose to download it. Why? Because the difference in quality between songs rated below 4 stars and those above is often significant. This could be a great system for the team to get info about songs but it is TERRIBLE for individual users to sift through the Zune Marketplace and their own libraries. I hope to god this system works better than my intuition tells me it will.

Also, one reason why people may not currently use the 5 star system very much is that it is incredibly unintuitive to rate songs from your computer... it's simple on your Zune, but not in the ZMP.

I hope all current ratings will be stored somewhere so when the 5 star system is brought back we don't lose information we've spent countless cumulative hours working on.

I hope I'm wrong.

Cody

Why are people asking why would you put the song on the zune in the first place? YOU DON'T!!! A PERSON SENDS U A SONG VIA WI-FI AND THEN YOU CHOOSE IF YOU DISLIKE OR LIKE IT!!!!Thus, in the the end you will know what songs u liked and did not. You may also rate a song in your zune if you want to but it is mostly for the wi-fi sharing part. If a person wants you to hear a song and you don't know what it sounds like or what it is about or ANYTHING... Thats the reason for sharing, Thus RATING THE SONG!!!

Skyskier

What? I really don't like that new idea. It's too black and white. Love or hate? What if I like one song (4-star) but I love this song (5-star). This is an essential tool for my autoplaylists and organization. Besides, if I don't like a song I will delete it, not give it a broken heart. You guys seem like you're trying to reinvent the wheel here. Don't fix what isn't broken, pleeeeeaase.

How about both? That would be great. The hearts for the simple user and stars for everyone else.

club

I simply don't rate music. If I don't like it, I don't have it. Simple as that. I like the new system.

And there are, in fact, 3 different ratings. Unrated, Love it, and Hate it.

TX T BON3

I don't like it!

Here's what I do, I upload whole albums and then as I'm in shuffle mode I will tag the song:

1 meaning take it off,

2 meaning that I'm getting tired of it, and it will probably be a 1 sooner or later. Or, maybe it's a current hit, but starting to get old.

3. It's ok to listen to

4. It's a good song, and probably one of the reasons why I even downloaded the album

5. Phenominal. I love it!  

I could see this "Hate it/ Love it" system being a big issue with serios music fans, and completely changing their listening habbits. That's not good.

And to add to this answer, "...if I didn't like a song, why would I have put it on my Zune in the first place?"

- If I'm a DJ, I have to have all sorts of music (good & bad taste) so I need to have a 1-5 rating system, so when I am on my own time I can listen to the 3-5 range..

Rookie

I believe there should possibly be both.  I believe that the entire reason they're doing this is for the new Zune "Social" website or whatever.  How about you make it so that people have the 5-star ratings on their devices, but on the website it translates that into the heart/broken heart form (3 stars + up/2 stars + down).

I think it's a bad move to completely take out a feature that so many users use (on a daily basis).  This also takes out the auto-playlists feature (I assume) which is one of both my and my friends' favorite features).  I hope that this is addressed in an update VERY soon after launch. (Or possibly a few months after having so many people keep complaining about it).

Andres Echevarria

I have to agree with those saying that this is a step back.  I love the five star rating system and using that as input into smart playlist.

I was hoping that the updated software on the 13th would improve the syncing such that even if I am not adding new music the rating that I do on my Zune is synced when I plug it in.

I think the basic and advance rating is a perfect way to cover all users.

This is a disappointment.  I will have to adjust I guess.  Full hearts are tier one, broken hearts are tier two and unranked are their just to complete full albums.

Twenty5

The thing that most of you guys dont realize is that the new rating system WILL be a huge aspect of Zune Social. And if you keep the 5 star rating system, it would just make everything way to hard and difficult to manage (the ratings fro example).

Instead, a heart (like or not) system would make it more convenient.

Cant wait for the 13!!

Joe72

No Way !

Bang go all my auto playlists !  I have auto playlists based on genre and artist.  How do I distinguish between album fillers that are OK and bad music that I don't want to delete because I own the album.  

How are these ratings going to work with existing MP3 metadata system?  Will these work with WMP ? and MCE ?

2 and above being good music !  This will effectively remove all my ratings for all my music that I've done over the years.  Please can you clarify what the upgrade will actually do - where are the ratings held?

Why not discuss these changes before making the changes?  isn't this what blogging is about?  Pointless blogging this 7 days before making the release.

Chris

Okay so I've got a serious problem that I need help with and hoping it can happen here.

I was chilling today listening to my Zune and presto chango it stops working.  So I go to check out what the deal is and it tells me all my tracks are expired.  

I've been searching online about this and all I can find is that my tracks will expire and theres no way to change expiration date.  So if this is the case I'm ticked.  If this is not the case please tell me what I can do to get my 4000+ songs back?

Please tell me that this is not some shady ZMP pass deal.  My pass is active and has been.

Thanks

Any help is appreciated.

Iain Gilbert

Cesar,

Why would I have music rated as Don't Like on my Zune or in my Collection? So now the heart rating offers only two options; Indifferent or Like It. This new rating system is flawed from the start. Star ratings are used everywhere in Windows Vista Photo Gallery, Movie Reviews, Restaurant Reviews....just about every review site you can think of uses something like stars. iTunes has recently updated the star ratings system where the ratings of individual songs are complied to give an overall average for the entire album. This is a great way to create filters for auto playlists. Please listen to what your real users are telling you and put star ratings back in the new software. You know it makes sense.

Finch

I have to agree with the yucks on this one. I have 19,500+ songs. They cannot be just a heart or a broken heart. Moreover, I'm not a 12-year-old girl. Jeez, man. Heart or broken heart? You're kidding, right? When are the Hello Kitty Zune 4s and 8s coming out?

Stupid.

T. Ramsey

I rank all my music and make many smart playlist. IE: more then 4 stars composed by Kanye West.

from what i understand this wont work anymore.

this doesnt work for me at all.

and i was so looking foward to the 13th

:(

very sad face

Noel

MICROSOFT! To some of us the 5 star rating system is more important than FM radio, Wifi sync or podcast. If this system doesn't come back a lot of us will be taking a second look at Apple.

We've spent countless hours rating our songs so that we can easily create playlists. I pray this system is only in ZMP and does not change the actual ratings in the files. This would totally piss off a lot of people.

Mitch

I don't care either way, but this is one of the big negatives that I have seen people complain about with this upcoming update... they should at least make it so people can still use the 5 star system if they want too.

williamc

I agree with the sentiments that we're losing something in the translation to a simplified Heart/No Heart system.  For one, multiple ranking allows for multiple user interpretations.  I use 1 star for songs to delete, 2 for songs I'm still thinking about, and 3-5 for ranking my tastes.

What I sincerely wish Zune offered (and hope will offer) is the ability to create dynamic playlists using the star system, so that I can ask my Zune to give me a dynamically changing playlist of my 5-star songs, even after I've uploaded music from ZMP without having ranked it.

Heart/No Heart is a nice system that I think would be a great addition to the 5-star system; it would let you designate songs to automatically remove upon sync, for example - can't we as users have both the old and new systems?

Hope this comment is helpful.

Tom

One of the best features of the existing Zune marketplace is the visibility of the 5 star ratings on tracks.  Not sure about this move to 3 stars (down, middle, up).  I'll echo the echo and say that this might not be the best move.

It looks like flagging songs is also gone - is this true?  This is another feature I use extensively (flagging tracks while I'm out and about and reviewing them when I sync).

Richardgm

Not a good move by the Zune team.

Like many others, I have many playlists that rely on the 5 star rating.

5 Star - Best Tracks on Zune

4 Star - Favourites

3 Star - Good / Listenable

2 Star - Trash/Delete

1 Star - Trash/Delete

How in the world am I going to have playlists that have a Good/Bad rating? Also I have no song on my zune that is below 3 stars, so having all my songs transferred to "Like it" as you call it is ridiculous. You've dumbed down a great listening feature...

You've made my zune, not me.

I only HOPE that the 5 star feature is brought back.

ZappCatt

I seldom use the 5 star rating..but a BLACK/WHITE, LOVE/HATE, ON/OFF rating is way to simplistic..

If you want to stick with the heart..figure out an in between to at least have a middle ground.

Love it, meh, hate it...much better..

Eddie

Meh, I'm cool with it.

Michael

Like/Don't like is also as subjective as the 5-star system.

I might like this song, somebody might hate this song. So that system is already broken.

I might grant this song as excellent (puts a 5), somebody might like it somewhat (4). How hard is that?

5-star system isn't hard to understand people:

1 star = Awful

2 star = kinda bad

3 star = OK

4 star = pretty good

5 star = excellent

With a Like/Don't like, it may be more straightforward, but...

I'm not a big fan of rap music, so I would probably put a don't like on all of them.

Opposite for a rap fanatic. So this system is very flawed.

At least with the 5-star, I could say that this rap song is pretty good, by giving it a slightly higher rating.

Please, reconsider doing the 5-star switch to Like/Don't like. 5-star just works for most people. It's not hard to understand.

Robert

I have to say I'm more inclined to this love/hate selection of music. In regards to someone's prior posting of not putting it on their zune if they don't like it. I see how this would be nice. The 5 star system drove me nuts. Somedays I'm fickle and won't give anything five stars some days I will give everything 5.

The nice part about this new rating system is that it's easy to just decide "I'm sick of this song" or "I miss this song" and bring it back into favor or put it back out to pasture. I'm for it.

Besides, I usually utilize auto-playlists to make playlists of oft neglected songs that I haven't heard in a while so that I can find the ones I want to put back into my favorites.

Nathan Stohlmann

I also have to voice some displeasure about this change. One of the reasons that I do not like "iLike" is because of their insistence on a simple binary rating system. There are some things I like more than others and other things I like less than others. Three choices I could deal with, four is nice, but five is really ideal.

Will this binary preference system also propagate to the Explorer preview in Vista?

Civisi

I don't like rating systems because my music tastes fluctuate.  Sure, I'd give Bing Crosby's Jingle Bells a 5-star rating. But that doesn't mean I want to listen to it in July instead of a 3-star song.

Can we at least rate songs in the Zune Marketplace even if we haven't downloaded them?

Malory1

I'm kind of torn on this issue. Honestly, I thought the new ranking system was a really stupid move the first time I heard about it. Initially, I agreed with the points others have made (too simple, why would I have music on my player that I don't like etc.), but I'm thinking more about it now and I think I actually would be able to use this feature.

I used to rank all of my music on the 1-5 star scale, but I didn't really use it for much. Right now, I have a bunch of mp3s I don't really want to listen too while walking to/from work every day (some soundtracks, audio books etc.), and I think this new system could be useful in keeping those tracks out the shuffle.

It would be nice if Zune gave its users a choice(after all, you make it you, right?!), but this really isn't as bad as I thought it was at first.

Tim

I like being able to easily recognize songs that I like a little, vs songs that I like a lot and everything in between.  I think people's tastes in music isn't as simple as just good or bad, and the ratings should be able to reflect that.  

Treating all zune users like idiots who can't figure out how to rate their own music on a 5 star system isn't cool.  That said, I'm hoping 90% of users wouldn't use the current rating system because they just don't care about ratings, and not just because they can't figure it out.  I guess I'm in the 10% minority here, but I'm dissapointed.

zune owner

I think like it/ don't like it is great for ranking music in market place. But rating is better for ranking music in my own collection.

I think a great combination of both ideas will be ability to vote multiple times. Essentially, if I say "like it" twice, it should mark the song with both heart and number 2.- something we have in certain blogs like thumbed up twice or thubmed down 5 times etc.

Flounder

I was all set to dump my ipod and start zuning but count me out with this idiotic system. What systems DON'T use 5 star ratings systems?  Netflix, blockbuster, itunes, musicmatch, WINDOWS MEDIA PLAYER, etc.  They ALL use them for a reason.  

I must say this is about the dumbest move I can think of and I am shocked MS would want to do something like this.  Whoever made this decision should be immediately terminated.

Jordy

Chris + Matt + John West = Exactly what i would have said.  I'm pretty dissapointed about this "improvement" and hope it gets reverted or changed to something like what John suggested sometime in the near future.

Ricardo de Freitas

I heavily use the 5 star system on the smart playlists.

That's ok to try the new like/dislike. I'm not against trying new things.

How about making the like/dislike a default but let us change to the 5 star system on the options tab?

Just like Chris mentioned above, I also switched to WMP because of the rating system.

Please, make it a user choice which system to use. (like Celsius and Fahrenheit)

DavidMx

hey cesar I've also noticed something else, a year ago when the Zune was out (yeah I've been with the Zune since the beggining), everyone was like: ¿what's a Zune?, and now almost everyone knows what is it, and the no-ipodfans wants one.

The Zune is growing in Mexico! cool.

De México Pa'l Mundo!

VeloriumSatire

So wait wait wait wait /wait/

Is there a broken heart, heart, and neutral option, or just heart and broken heart?

Regardless you should make there be an "advanced option" to bring it back to being a 0-5 star rating. my reason being is playlists, it's the easiest way to sort them out on the go with smart-playlists. Plus, with most of the people out there, if they don't like a song, it's not on their DAP/PMP. Simple as that.

Basically, make the 0-5 rating an option, or make on the go saved playlists on my zune manageable, versus how with they are now, all the saved playlists (aka everything but my quick list) aren't manageable.

MY FIRST GEN DELL DJ FROM 4 YEARS AGO HAD THE OPTION TO MANAGE SAVEABLE PLAYLISTS ON THE PLAYER!!!

So please take care of that. Please? It's my one huge pet peeve about the zune; seriously.

John in S.Florida

Its not so much that I hate the system.  I just want to see consistency across the various Microsoft ecosystems.  Media Center is a front-end we often use to access and playback Zune marketplace content.  And I imagine you folks will get around making Windows Mobile compatible with the content from your marketplace.  If you make a change...fine, but make sure that consistent in your other platforms.

Josh N

doesn't this take away from the whole "you make it you" to be more similar across the board?  I personally do not like the system, especially because I have spent a lot of time rating my stuff.  there needs to at least be a neutral (different from no rating) but more positive way of marking things.  Are you going to at least have the ratings preserved so that when you change back everything will still be there?

I can see this being beneficial for those who never rate their music, but not for me.  Give us a choice so i can make it me.

Frankly, I do not only love or hate a song, some I really love, like top 10 love, and some i just like on a basic level.  please don't screw my ratings, or i may go back to <shh> (iTunes) to keep a real rating system.  i will at least go back into that inferior program and make sure all my real ratings are up to date.

My theory is that the new system is for better integration into Zune Social.  There still needs to be a like, but not "the greatest song ever" rating.

Bottom Line: Give us an option, don't delete our ratings.

Alfonso Surroca

Add me to the list of people with massive music libraries and auto-playlists that rely on 0-5 star ratings.

A compromise would be more of a hate-like-love rating system, so that we can at least differentiate between those tracks we like a little and those which we like a lot. Alternatively, you could add a favorites option...

I presume that when you bring the music into another program like regular WMP11, broken hearts will be translated to 2 stars and hearts will be translated to 5 stars? If you made the translation a function of the like;don't like rating AND the frequency of play, that would be pretty 1337 btw ;)

Dr. Octagon

Great move, rating system was pretty pointless IMHO, never knew anybody that rated their music. In response to some angry responders, there are really 3 ratings:

Heart - Good song/Great Song

Nothing - Impartial

Broken Heart - Don't like it / Delete it

Andrew

Why are they dumbing down a system for the sake of consistency? I don't care what rating system Joe from Hoboken uses to rate his music.

At the very least give us both modes.

Ricardo de Freitas

Can I upgrade my player but not my ZMP?

Sol..

Do NOt LiKe!

Reasons being that a 5 star system is universal. If people are confused about it SLAP THEM! The system (and small variations of such like 10 and 4 star) are used in damn near all mediums and are widely accepted. The main reason of using multiple points is to split the great from the good from the average from the bad. Like and Dislike is too white and black. Sure you can "like" a song but do you REALLY like it? Can you listen to it 15 or 20 times every couple of days? Thats how i rate and it's important to me when managing my songs.

Matter of fact, I wish the zune would organize by star. So i could have the stuff i'm really digging at the time (rated 5 and some 4s) sorted for quick listening.

BOB

This new system is to water down, and going to stir ppl that are serious about the collection away with the water down system. please allow for both rating system.

I like when i can look at a album on ZMP and know what the top hits of the albums are. This new system almost makes me not want to upgade to the new firmare

***** - Kicks Ass Across The Universe

**** - Most Excellent Tunage

*** - Tolerable

** - A Once-In-A-Decade Listen

* - Make It An iTunes Exclusive

***** - Zune 80/Zune flash

**** - Zune 80

*** - Zune 80

Ricardo de Freitas

Well... maybe mine was a stupid question.

But I wished I didn't have to make the switch.

I was so excited to buy the Zune 80.

I am seriously thinking about keeping my Zune 30 and stopping the automatic update.

No firmware update and no software update for me.

Atpaw, from down under. ;)

My kneejerk reaction is to join the choir of "autoplaylist needs 5 stars" voices, but I'll step back for a moment.

My usual autoplaylist grabs whatever new podcasts/music has appeared on my PC and puts that up front in order of file creation date, then the rest is a jumble of Random 4-or-more stars.

I guess that could still work with like/dislike. Preferably, like/meh/dislike, because there's stuff I'll tolerate as filler, and then there's stuff that I just Don't Like but have for completeness of albums/reference.

How will the Marketplace (et al) work, though? By aggregate rating? (eg: 80% Like, 20% Dislike)

Jimla in Redmond,WA

Using the new Rating system: "Don't Like" this feature

Being a retired Microsoft employee(10 years) I am upset what the development team has been focusing their resources on, while there is not enough developer resources for Gapless playback, clock functionally and many other top 10 requested features.   This team has the resources to change the rating system.

1)The simple fact is most people who currently don’t rate their songs will not rate their songs with this new system.  

2)There is no reason for the development team to take away functionally.  Rating could be displayed in either "Like/Don't like" or 0-5 depending on the user’s choice.   The user could change these setting at any time.  In the simple system anything rating “Like” would be given a rating of 4 and anything rated “Don't Like” would be given a rating of 2.  Later on when the user wants more control of their rating system they can move to the 0-5 rating system.

Zune development team:  You need to focus on the features customers want and make a better product than the competition.

Amoney323

I have not used the heart/broken heart system and I already do not like it. I use the star rating system and have been since I started ripping music onto windows media player. I have most of my music set up with the rating system. Please let us be able to continue to use this system.

The advanced/basic mode option seems to be a great idea.

Please let us know if this will be fixed soon, it makes me not want to get the update on nov 13.

jabbertrack

This makes a lot of sense to me at least. Once in a while I try to rate songs but it usually takes me longer than a few seconds to think about what I want to rate it... which I think is far too long.

I either like it... or don't.

JSCools

I hope the Zune team ignores the "hardcore" whiners and goes with the streamlined rating system. The focus group was right.

Most normal users ignore the current rating system because it's a colossal bother, but the love/hate system will allow us to flag the exceptionally good and bad without having to parse stuff like "well, is it a 3.5 or a 4?" Haha, I can just imagine some greasy dude sweating it out while he's decides the fate of every track in his collection.

Ryanmv

I don't think it's such a big deal.

All in all i believe the new zune is going to be an amazing product no matter what, PERIOD.

If you don't like  the song you won't have it and if you do it'll be on your zune.

Why does it make it different to have a label on songs like or not. If you do it's on your zune if not. It'll probably not be.

Zac Attack

I don't like the Like/Dislike system. I also don't like the 5 star system. A Like/Neutral/Dislike system would be best!

Also, I would REALLY like to know what all the music is from the zunejourney.net site. It is amazing. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

Mark

ya... I never found the rating thing useful simply because I know what songs I like and what songs I don't like. That being said, I still think forcing everyone to use the like/don't like rating system is a bad idea. What would be good is this: people can choose whether they want 5 star or like/dislike(can even make like/dislike the default) and 1 or 2 stars counts as dislike if you share songs with some1 else or do anything social related. It would simply do 5 stars on your own library if you want to. I don't think that's unreasonable... I could probably code it in like 5 minutes and it would make a whole lot of people(read comments above) happy and would hurt no one.

dsantana

Hi all,

I really use the 5 star rating, I have my music library rated mainly this way:

5-I really like

4-OK

3-Just Downloaded full album and probably would not listen to this

2-Need/Want to Keep

1-Not Needed

0-Needs Rating

I have some auto lists that use ratings:

Unclassified-Needs to be rated

5NewStars-Short selection of 5stars songs from last 2 years

5Stars-Larger selection of 5Star songs

4Stars-Favourites (Very Large)

I only sync to the Zune device 5Star songs or Special artist Playlists, this is the way I manage to keep a large library (10K songs) and a 30GZune with only 50% music (and 50% video)...

I would be OK with a Heart (like/don'tlike) system for the Zune Device, but for the whole library is a bad idea (IMHO).

Cheers,

DS.

Amblin

Well this update made my evening. Confirmation that the software upgrade is indeed coming on the 13th. Horrah.

Perry

I was really looking forward to buying the Zune80 and finally having an easier way to rate my music (while at work).

Like many others with large collections a 5 star rating system is essential!

Please either support both systems or rethink this  decision.

Nodes

Like a large number of commentors here, I really don't like this. I also use star ratings to sort all of my playlists out automatically in iTunes. I cannot efficiently sort 100GB of music in any other way. I like the new Zune a lot and was planning to switch but this has put me right off.

You really need to reconsider this decision.

N.

Michael

I actually like the new system.  I think people are taking it too literally when you say LOVE/HATE.  It's not really LOVE/HATE, but more of LOVE/NOT-SO-MUCH.  

Besides, many people on here use 1 or 2 stars for songs they don't like.  Then use </3 for that.  And for the songs you're mid-way on: don't rate them at all.  And for the songs you LOVE give it a <3

Simple & Easy.

Justin

To me, both systems seem to have their flaws.  The love it/hate it system is too rigid and the 5-star system has one or two too many stars than needed.  That being said, I would much prefer the system that is going to give me greater flexibility (i.e. the 5-star system).

The problem I run into now with the 5-star system is that I've basically turned it into a 3-star system.  Anything with 1 or 2 stars rarely gets listened to (unless I'm listening to an album as a whole).  Anything with 4 or 5 stars gets most of my attention, but in terms of enjoyment, the difference between the two is largely symbolic -- a 5-star song is what I consider as close to perfect as an artist can get; however, if I only listen to 5-star songs, I'll quickly get bored and want more variety, so I balance that by listening mostly to 4 and 5-star songs.  If I still want more variety, I can throw in the 3-star songs.

The problem with Love/Hate is that now I'm basically limited to all of my music (which previously would have been 1,2,3,4, and 5 stars) or all of the music I like (3,4,5, and possibly 2 stars), even if I only like it a little.  Love/Hate has taken away the ability to sit down and say "today I want to listen to music that I really like".

What I'd actually like to see, because it greater reflects my listening habits, is a combination of a Love/Hate with Moods.  I tend to listen to different playlists based more on my moods than anything.  I could easily abandon the 5-star system if I was given the opportunity to create playlists from music I love to listen to when I'm tired, or music I love to listen to when I'm happy, or even music I love to listen to when I'm depressed.  That to me would be of incredible value.

Harvey

Thanks, Cesar. Just to clarify on the conversion: "below 2 stars" will display as a broken heart; "above 2 stars" will display as a heart. What about 2 stars itself? Broken heart?

Crippler

I have to agree with a lot of the negative posts on this rating system.  The new system is far too simplistic.  Why not just change the stars to hearts if it's about "human terms"?  IMO, that would keep the hardcore ratings users happy and also make the system appeal to casual users.  Again, if it's really about the appeal factor.  To me it's all about functionality, which the Love It or Hate It system is not.  At least give us the option of choosing a rating system.  'Novice' or "Advanced'

Peace.          

Jonathan Sundy

I don't mind the simplification, as personally differentiating 2 stars and 1 stars never made much sense to me and differentiating a 4 or 5 star was also hard... so I totally get what you are going for and I support it.

WITH ONE CAVEAT, You need to have a 3 star system.  It has to be Hate Like Love.  The reason is that for people with huge collections there are large gradients in your feelings towards your music.  And there is a big difference between a song I love and will always listen to when it comes up in random and a song I like that I may sometimes skip.  Hate of course I don't ever want to come up.

The reason for hate is that some people keep full albums (me...) and don't like all the songs, others keep music that others may like... a girlfriend for example.  So there are reasons to have music you aren't fond of available.

Some people are suggesting that you use unrated as a like (vs love) the problem is that there is no way to differentiate music you have not rated from music you just like (but don't love) so that won't do.

I have a large music collection and I haven't really rated any of it.  I like to have a playlist of all unrated tracks that I can listen to when traveling and actually make an effort to rate songs.  But this system will really taint that without a like/love differentiation.

You also lose the auto-rating with this don't you?  I loved the concept of the song I listen to often automatically getting boosted ratings without intervention, not a perfect system, but handy.

So I don't know.  People are scared of change, and ironically in your bid for wider acceptance you may have seriously angered your early adopters that are more technically minded.

I say keep it, but add a 3rd level, I think it really really needs it.

Good luck, hopefully for you guys this is just a vocal minority.

opuntia

“anything below 2 stars will display as a broken heart, and anything above will display as a heart.”

If I read your last sentence literally, below 2 = broken heart and above 2 = heart.  Then what will songs be if they have 2 stars, no heart?

opuntia

Tablet PC User

I only have one question....can I go back to the star rating if I don't like the heart rating?

David

This is a big problem. There is are many gradations between loving and not loving a song. I really hope you will reconsider this. I'm using ratings for auto-playlists (combined with genres). How can you do any kind of auto playlists with just a 2 ratings?

Also, Vista now has ratings for everything! Why are you inconsistent with the rest of the OS? This should all be standard.

dead jim

you're killing me.  

mAdAk

I like the new system.  With the five star system if something was mediocre I had to give it 3 stars.  In the new system, unrated means mediocre.  If I don't either love it or hate it, I don't have to do anything.  

I think the playlists will still work too.  If you want what was level 5, only play "heart" music.  If you want 3-5, play unrated and heart.

As for the question, "why would I have music on my zune that I hate?", well because I hadn't listened to it before it was on my zune.  As someone else said, this is an indicator to remove it.

For the person requesting the 3 star system, is there a difference between Hate Like Love and Hate Unrated Love?  Like I said, I would prefer not to rank music that is just average.  

Pablo

Please leave an advanced mode with the 5 star rating! I use it for auto playlists all the time - and have spent a huge amount of time rating all of my collection! This would be quite a disappointment for me!

I'm with JScools

"I hope the Zune team ignores the "hardcore" whiners and goes with the streamlined rating system. The focus group was right."

+1.

met

Please don't mess up my collection.

JC

I'll give it a whirl!

PS - Smart playlists?  Do they exist now??  If so I haven't come by them but Zune really needs that feature!!

Jeff Key

This is a real bummer. On a scale of 1 to 3 where 1 is 'meh' and three is 'love', 70% of the stuff on my Zune would be a 2, with 15% falling into both 1 and 3. How does this work in the new system? Does this mean I 'love' 85% of the stuff on there? That certainly isn't the case. Does not selecting either count as a vote for 'like'?

Nelly

This is the worst decision I've heard.  None of the other "upgrades" in this firmware is worth the "downgrade" of heart / unheart.  Thanks for converting me back to the iPod.  Hope anyone that put the Zune on top of CNET's most wanted list, finds a way to undo that vote until MSFT makes a change to this crappy idea.

Nick

Perhaps broken heart, heart, and REALLY BIG HEART for the three-state version?

IndyLux

I have never used the 5 star rating system because I never found it helpful.  Maybe I'll try the like/don'tlike, but I think it'll just be a non-feature like it's always been for me.