Thanks, listening now.  Lets hope Leo is a little nicer. ;)

i just thought of another great update,

you know the beginning menu

MUSIC

VIDEOS

PICTURES

COMMUNITY

SETTINGS

it would be great to have a font editor or a list of fonts to change the beginning menu to like graffiti, cursive, etc

I liked that David said (I talked about it before) even when newer Zune comes out, the existing Zune will get most of the same new features.  Again, that would fit with their "Zune Platform" mentality.

Leo and Paul didn't ask about videos on the Zune Marketplace but of course we wouldn't get an answer anyway...  

I liked how he almost said "video Marketplace" instead of music marketplace...

That would be something nice to have wouldn't it. Since I don't officially get to use my screen for the thing it should be used for. :P

(I am aware I can convert other things to the format)

ok, so this whole thing about the zune not being a direct "IPOD KILLER" was a lie.  David Caulton clearly said that it was targeted at the ipod.

Don't get me wrong, I love my zune and have many friends who have bought them because of me, but dont lie about the intent of the device.

David seems to be speaking of this great player and all the things it can do (did he say internet?), only it's not this current Zune.

Leo ask about the disappointment on the first Zune and how it's not delivering. David answered by saying how little time the team had to create the Zune from scratch to finish, and also how it's really hard to create "a really rock-solid basic experience". Um, congrats guys but maybe you should have requested (or demanded) more time to create that very rock solid experience eh, cause this current Zune ain't it! I mean the iPod had a rock solid experience in 2001, (that's 2001). I think they got the basics right back then.

Regarding podcast, many users of WMP has been waiting/requesting podcast to be implemented for years now. I know many users that uses iTunes to get their podcast fix on their none iPod player, doesn't seem right. Yes music is the core of a DAP, but when the leader has all these things like podcast, audiobooks, etc.  for years now that's growing fast, you can't just brush it off as though it's not important.  That 10-20 percent David mentioned is a large percentage of podcast users that should not be ignored.

Both Leo and Paul had a bad first impressions:

Paul Thurrott

November 13-27, 2006

http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/zune.asp

"The bottom line is that Microsoft should have waited until it had a more compelling product to sell. I can't imagine what they were thinking."

It is really annoyig not being able to put such simple things as music video artist, year, etc.

I listened to it and was really disappointed that he didn't say anything I didn't already know.  One thing that really got me going nuts is when he said he didn't want to do infrastructure WIFI networking because its not a closed ecosystem.  Its a standard!  The zune has 802.11B/G just like every wireless router on the market today!  If they plan on only doing ad-hoc networking they are loosing a ton of potential.  

Look at the PSP.  You can connect to a wireless network, type in a key, and browse the web.  This feature did not come with it, but came later in a firmware update.  I hope the same thing happens for the Zune.

milo - Dave didn't say anything about trying to kill ipod :)

He talks about how our innovation is different from apple (sharing, recommendations, web 2.0 stuff). "instead of carrying CDs around, I carry a hard-drive" I didn't get trying to kill iPod from any of that.

Holy parade of straw men, Batman! I realize that David Caulton had to champion the Zune, but that advocacy crossed the line in several instances.

At one point, Mr. Caulton actually compared the Zune to portable cassette players and portable CD players. I don't know what era he's living in, but portable cassette players haven't been popular since the 1980s, and portable CD players were overtaken by MP3 players years ago. If you have to go back in time 5-20 years in order to make your tech product look good against the competition, you've got a problem.

I was really disappointed by Mr. Caulton's response to the podcasting questions. How hard would it have been to say something like, "Podcasting support is one of our users' top requests, and we're working hard to add first-rate podcasting features to the Zune device and software in the near future."? Instead, he marginalized podcasting as something only 15-20% of iPod users do and claimed that podcasting is a "separate, geeky area" of iTunes. On a podcast, no less! Has this guy ever used iTunes? People don't have to worry about RSS feeds, as Mr. Caulton suggested, unless they're using a (Microsoft) media player that lacks podcasting support. And podcasting is about as "marginalized" on iTunes and the iTunes Store as other top-level categories like music, TV shows, movies, and audiobooks -- that is to say, not at all!

It doesn't make much strategic sense to ignore podcasting on a purportedly hip media device. As far as I can tell, podcasting is growing in popularity now that iTunes offers easy access to the masses. In addition, the market research about podcasting on iPods is probably somewhat out of date and does not reflect accurately the level of interest in the early-adopter Zune community. I just don't understand why Microsoft is so hesitant to embrace podcasting. Is it the name? The best way to reduce the association between podcasts and iPods is for Microsoft to add podcasting support to its products.

Mr. Caulton also claimed that listening to audiobooks was a "geeky" activity, which simply doesn't make any sense. Even worse, he stated repeatedly that the current Zune delivers a "rock-solid experience" for music. I bet those Zune owners experiencing random reboots, skipping during playback, and/or syncing problems for the last four months would beg to differ! The excuse proffered for not including PlaysForSure support on the Zune (different "squirting" rights) is weak, considering that a sizable portion (ca. 40% by some counts) of Zune Marketplace tracks cannot be shared wirelessly.

The most insulting part of the podcast was the discussion of the Zune's market share. Mr. Caulton declared that the Zune had "just short of 11%" of the hard drive-based MP3 player market. When was this? Zune's release week? The NPD data I've seen show that the Zune had a 10.2% share in December and a 9.9% share in January. The NPD numbers are pretty much worthless, however, since they don't include sales figures from such large retailers as WalMart, Costco, Sam's Club, Amazon, and the online and retail APPLE STORES. Mr. Caulton then made the ludicrous claim that because the NPD numbers didn't include WalMart, the Zune's market share was "probably higher" than 11%. To me, that statement is a blatant lie. I doubt there is a single person on the entire Zune team who believes that the Zune sold better at WalMart/Costco/Sam's Club/Amazon/APPLE STORES than it did at other retail venues. A positive spin is one thing, but lying about your market share is just pathetic.

Finally, Mr. Caulton's claim that Apple "hasn't really done anything" in terms of adding community features to iPod+iTunes is also false. The iTunes Store currently has such features as personalized recommendations, user reviews, staff favorites, frequently updated lists of bestsellers, "listeners also bought..." recommendations, and iMixes (user-generated playlists). Maybe one day the Zune will surpass iPod+iTunes on this front, but right now it appears that Apple actually has a lot *more* community features. Stick to the facts, please!

Why do you keep deleting my comments, Cesar? My comment did not contain any profanity, nor was it insulting to readers/commenters of this site.

your comments come off kind of trolling and mean sometimes. and David is a friend of mine :)

I swear I'm not a troll! Look, I'm sorry if my comment sounded mean, but you should note that I didn't say anything remotely nasty about David himself. In fact, he sounds like a nice guy to me. I merely pointed out some factual inconsistencies in David's statements on the TWiT podcast. If my statements were wrong, couldn't you have debunked my comment on its merits rather than deleting it entirely?

I had high hopes for the Zune project but so far, I'm disappointed in the current state of the Zune. Not just the player and software, which are a bit lackluster at the moment, but especially the way that some members of the Zune community are making up stuff about the iPod and iTunes in a misguided attempt to elevate the Zune. I just wish you would compete more on the merits and stick to the facts -- as much as possible in marketing ;-) -- to make a case for the Zune.

Thanks, Cesar! :-)

I used to think "Who listens to audiobooks, don't they know how to read?"  But now I realize that there are so many scenarios where a simple bookmaking feature is necessary.  Just the other day I was listening to a comedy album that had a one  hour track.  Each time I wanted to listen to it I needed to seek to where I left off.  Another example would be a podcast.

Ok, JLB, I've re-posted your comment. Overall I'm glad you comment here (just remember to be a nice guy next time ;)

Re: your specific points: we're *definitely* not ignoring podcasting - we didn't prioritize it based on research and data that said the majority of users don't use them (along w/ audiobooks), but the group who use them are vocal - including myself and David C.

I think you missed David's analogy of tape players, but it's not worth belaboring here.

By and large, Zune owners are happy w/ their Zune - this blog gets 1000s of readers/day and the percentage of people who experience problems is relatively small - 10,000+ daily readers, and about 70 commenters experiencing problems. And no way to authenticate a user as a troll without a Zune vs an actual owner: http://fakesteve.blogspot.com/2007/02/zune-complaint-blog.html

The true test for you here should be you yourself getting one and deciding for yourself. . . hint, hint ;). Right now, it seems like you're judging the experience a priori. so, your comments here really reflect your opinions, which, while I can surmise that you're an intelligent guy, you're basing your points based on your ability to debate vs. first-hand knowledge. If you actually own a Zune, then I'm wrong :)

Facts? on the internet? surely you jest ;)

As for marketshare data, we're sticking w/ NPD. And so does the industry.  that it's not perfect doesn't mean we should throw it out. It's what the retail channel uses to report sales. And the retail team at Microsoft has used NPD long before the Zune: see: http://gamerscoreblog.com/team/archive/2006/03/13/533647.aspx.  That apple stores (arguably a boutique-retailer w/ only 149 stores in the U.S. http://www.apple.com/retail/storelist/  and walmart, club stores don't report their data doesn't mean we should throw it out. We're actually selling very well at walmart, and through sheer volume numbers (1,074) make up a big percentage of the numbers. David has access to information that you don't (unless you secretly work at wal-mart corporate), so hold off before you accuse him of lying or hyperspinning. So, nobody's "lying" or anything along those lines (that point is probably why I deleted your comment btw). more on NPD: http://npd.com/corpServlet?nextpage=profile_s.html

 just kidding on that ;)

As for the community features of iTunes - he didn't say "apple have done nothing for community" but in order to get to the community features, you have to dig quite down in iTunes. and nothing on the device in that respect. With Zune, community is a fundamental underpinning - right now it's *just* wireless, but as for the future. . . stay tuned :)  

Nobody's makin stuff up. but I did get you to be nicer in the future.

oh, and one last thing. Not to brag, but it must be cool that you have access to a member of the zune team to talk to, share your opinions w/, and the like. Brand X doesn't offer such a service ;)

btw, you can get David's take on David's words by commenting on *his* blog : www.zunester.com

Yea its great that you guys have blogs and are listening to the ideas people have.

Cesar said:

"Not to brag, but it must be cool that you have access to a member of the zune team to talk to, share your opinions w/, and the like. Brand X doesn't offer such a service ;)"

Last I checked, "Brand X" didn't *need* to offer that service to get their product sold. It sells on its merits alone.

Anyway you'd be mistaken to think "Brand X" doesn't listen to their customers. Customers asked for video? They got video. Customers asked for games? They got games. Customers asked for telephony? They're getting telephony in June.

*Somebody* sure is listening to their customers. I just don't think it's Microsoft.

Cesar, let me express thanks to you for offering an almost 100% open forum for comment and debate. Let's just hope it makes the target product better.

Apple has had 5 years.  The zune team has had less them 5 months to listen to the community.  So far they are doing a great job.  

The iPod does not sell on merit.  It sells on hype.  There are so many better mp3 players then the iPod.

Just because a product sells more does not mean its a better product.  Many people don't know the difference between an iPod and an mp3 player.  Many people walk into a store looking for an iPod, not an mp3 player.  The advertisements help a lot.  The iPod is popular.  The last time I was on a plane the flight attendant said to put away iPods for landing.

For people buying multiple iPods, I have heard many stories on the zune forums of people switching to zune from the ipod.  They scratch very easily.  

Here is a comment from 2 hours ago on digg: "I don't know why but I want the Zune to be amazing...my ipod needs replacing."

Have you used the zune?  If you have, that explains why you are trolling on a zune blog.  It kicks the iPod's ass.

@ Kyle

"The iPod does not sell on merit.  It sells on hype.  There are so many better mp3 players then the iPod."

And the Zune sells on merit how?

The iPod in the beginning (before the so called "hype") sold because it was a well designed player at the time. I bought one at version 3 before all the Ads and all the iPod clones you see today. As it became popular, I remember changing the white headphones because I did not want to be associated with the iPod crowd. Since then I bought 2 more iPods based on merit, not hype. Yes they're many who bought the iPod based on "hype", but lets not take away from the fact that it's a well designed quality player. Advertising alone won't sell a product. But I am sure the Zune team would love to be at the point where the Zune can sell on "hype". Where airplane pilots are telling you to turn off your 'Zune'.   :)

I deleted the fight club comments (you know I was gonna ;)

The zune sells completely on merit.  Everyone loves to bash it and there is so much negative press about it that the features of the zune are what sells it.  

If you take my quote: "The iPod does not sell on merit.  It sells on hype.  There are so many better mp3 players then the iPod."

I never said the iPod was bad.  I just said there are much better players.

Back when I bought my first mp3 player everyone was buying the iPod minis.  Creative had a player for the same price with a gig more of storage and an FM radio that would let me record what I was listening to.

So if you look at the zune, for the same price you get a bigger screen, a much better interface, the FM radio, and the WIFI.  So two months ago when I had the choice between an iPod or a Zune, I went with the zune.

Thanks, listening now.  Lets hope Leo is a little nicer. :-)

@ Kyle

Why do you think it's being bashed by tech experts like Leo or even Paul Thurrott (Mr. Windows himself)? I can't remember the Creative players being bashed like this, can you? :) It can't be because it's from Microsoft, the XBox 360 seem to be getting good reviews.

But what may be "better" for you may be the opposite for me, it's all subjective anyway. I stopped listening to FM years ago for obvious reasons, which is why I was so interested in the iPod (or other DAPs). I also had the choice between the Creative players and the iPod but I went with the iPod because the scroll-wheel IMO was "better" than the super sensitive vertical pad. Add to that the ease of use and also the way it worked well with iTunes, compare to using WMP at the time.

"So if you look at the zune, for the same price you get a bigger screen, a much better interface, the FM radio, and the WIFI.  So two months ago when I had the choice between an iPod or a Zune, I went with the zune."

With the Zune, you have a nice large screen but you loses that important storage ability the iPod & Creative players has. You have an FM, but loses that important bookmark ability for Podcasts and Audiobooks which you complained about (and which is not currently implemented in Marketplace). Wifi sharing is nice but what's the point if it's going to be so limited/restricted and some record labels do not want to support it. And the Zune team still refuses to let you know which songs are not sharable before you buy and try to share.... but I digress.

I don't know any respected tech pundit or gadget enthusiast who would say the Zune in its current stage is "better" than the iPod. But it does have potential to do great and take it to higher levels with the wifi, it's just not their yet.

In the video Leo complements the device and then bashes the DRM.  What are you talking about with Paul Thurrott?  At the end he says its better then the iPod.

The resume and podcasting features were very minor for me.  I can subscribe to my own RSS feeds and seek to where I left off in a track.  Even with the small advantages the iPod has, the UI and the screen really make the difference, for me at least.

@ Kyle

"In the video Leo complements the device and then bashes the DRM."

You are a true dedicated fan to have noticed any compliments in Leo's Zune bashing video. The DRM is part of the Zune experience so overall it was a Zune bashing indeed, not just a DRM bashing! :) He also bashed the Click Wheel clone, the Welcome to the Social slogan, the fact that MS is paying Universal $$ for the hardware, not the software etc., called it a piece of donkey dooky and then went on to say don't buy it.

As for Paul Thurrott, he said if you just want music the Zune arguably is a better experience than the iPod. Well I would hope any company entering the DAP space 6 years late would improve on the music experience (i.e. UI). But we are in 2007, and buying a DAP for just music is so 2001. Besides again it's all subjective which is better, but the Zune does have a nice UI and screen I agree, but to many other shortcomings that's important to me.

And just because Paul complements the music experience does not mean he would recommend a Zune over an iPod. Here is more proof of Paul Thurrott's view of the Zune - November:

http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/zune.asp

"The Zune, which was confirmed in mid-2006 and then released earlier this month, is a me-too device that provides only a small fraction of the iPod's functionality."

"The way Zune is marketed is also a travesty. The "Welcome to the social" tagline is clearly meant to evoke the grammatically questionable yet enduringly homey "Think Different" campaign that Apple waged half a decade ago for the Mac."

"While the Zune seems to have all the basics covered, there are a wide number of iPod features that Microsoft has conspicuously not added to the Zune. These omissions make the Zune far less desirable, in my own opinion. And the list of missing features, sadly, is quite long....As it is, Zune offers little benefit for those who have never purchased an MP3 player of any kind and absolutely no benefit to those who have heavily invested in Apple's iPod ecosystem."

"Overall, the Zune is absolutely decent. It's got a nice, large screen, a simple menu system, and intuitive controls. It gets good battery life, and does provide the most basic functionality that most people expect. It is, in other words, completely average. But since you can buy a lighter, nicer-looking, and more capable iPod for exactly the same amount of money, and can find other iPod models that meet different needs at different price points, you should almost certainly avoid the first generation Zune. It just comes with too many compromises."

"Final thoughts

The bottom line is that Microsoft should have waited until it had a more compelling product to sell. I can't imagine what they were thinking.

--Paul Thurrott

November 13-27, 2006"

And from his own discussions with David before this Podcast - December: http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/zunestory.asp

"Final thoughts

Apple's products are superior today, there's no doubt about it, and the slew of iPods and iPod accessories I've bought over the years testifies to how a superior product can sway even a diehard Windows guy like myself. I'm not ready to recommend the current Zune device to anyone per se, but I'll be tracking the Zune's improvements over the coming year. This could prove to be an interesting battle sometime in the future.

--Paul Thurrott

December 11, 2006"

To your first point: Yes, that is exactly what I said.  He complements the device and bashes the DRM.  The deal with universal can be objectively looked at as part of that.  But that really wasn't the part I wanted to emphasize.  The zune device itself is really good.  The software and the firmware have some shortcomings.  None of them were severe enough to stop me from buying it.

For me, the zune is perfect.  I spend much of my time in Linux so I suppose I'm a "more then average" computer user.  For me, converting to WMV or subscribing to an RSS feed to get podcasts is not much of a hustle.

One other thing people complain about is the lack of accessories.  For me, the only accessory I need is a case (thanks Cesar).  I don't need a $100 iHome.  I just plug it into the speakers I have.

So to the sharing:  You really can't count it as a con compared to the iPod since the iPod has nothing like it.  Its like owning the first telephone.  It will become more useful over time.

You guys should just hug it out. thanks for keeping the conversation civil though :) Daveworld, I suppose the true test would be for you to actually use Zune for yourself (assuming you haven't). Kyle has and very much seems to like it.

Just a short rebuttal and clarification on the discussion.

The problem with the "Zune guys" is...You get on their site to critique (sometimes harshly) their product and they say you don't own it or you're a troll.  But get on their site and make excuses for the OBVIOUS shortcomings and you're a "reasonable objective user".  

I visit this site daily, I've posted many times, I am a Zune owner, I'm not a "tech head", I'm just a guy who wants and waited for the "best of the best" to come out.  Sadly I'm disappointed!

I know I run the risk of this post being deleted because I'm not waving my MS pom-pom.

*sigh*

Come on March 20th.  Maybe this will be the one.

Cesar

First thanks for not deleting my post; I was trying not to sound like I'm "trolling", just debating. Kyle very much so loves his Zune, no question! There should be an award for such devotion. :-) But he does have selective listening in pointing out any good in that Leo 'Zune Bashing' video or thinking Paul feels the Zune is "better then the iPod" as a whole.

I tried a Zune but do not own one yet, waiting for the team to fix the shortcomings first that everyone seem to be requesting (you know the list). But after listening to the podcast for a second time, I am under the impression that because it's a small percentage of users (15-20% of geeks as David said) that uses such things like podcast, forget about seeing it anytime soon. There need to be a business model set-up first where we will have to now pay to subcribe to podcast, see more advertising and MS makes money (yup sounds like MS) before we see it implemented in Marketplace.

Keep in mind without Apple jumping in early and adding 'free' podcast support in iTunes, we would not have such an array of podcast choices as we have today for tech-savvy Zune owners like Kyle to subscribe to. Heck, we probably wont be listening to this very podcast.

Yea I laughed when I heard the 15-20% thing too.  How can they completely disregard that.  Its not a number like 2%.  Thats 15-20% of people who could NEVER switch to the zune.  Add that to the 15-20% who need a video marketplace because they can't encode their own videos.  Add that to the 15-20% of people that want games on an mp3 player.  You end up loosing a substantial part of the potential buyers.

To sway everyone from the iPod to the zune you can't just do MOST of what the iPod does.  You need to give people a reason to jump ship on the iPod and come to the zune.

Funny, my 14-year-old son listens to podcasts on his iPod.  Maybe they polled kindergartners.