I'm mentioned by Cesar!  I'm practically famous :)

I agree that anything that begins with a lowercased "i" is an incredibly strong brand and it will get more press than anything else in the tech field.

Steve Jobs always is always awesome at marketing his products. (Note that I didn't say "Apple's products" since we all should agree that Jobs IS Apple.) Even when his arrogance shines, as Time magazine points out, you still accept it because he can convince you that he's right.

If the iPhone comes down in price, which it will simply because of economy of scale, then it will be a direct contender with T-Mobile's Sidekick and others. And while it is an extremely great-looking phone, the fact that it is so locked down is very disappointing. (See the Arstechnica.com article called "Steve Jobs Knows Best" for a more biting view of the topic.) And, obviously, touch-screen iPods are coming soon and that would be just awesome!

But, anyhow, since you agree that Jobs is such a good showman, I'd like to ask, are you all going to enhance your marketing of the Zune? What's the Zune's edge? (It needs one to compete with iPods.) Most people I know who saw your Endless Cookie ad swooned over it, then turned and asked, "What's a Zune?"

I know you can't give specifics, but I figured a vague "We're looking into it" or "It's in the works" would be acceptable.

Oh, and on Bill Gates' Keynote: Tell him to spice it up. Make it cool instead of like my father's business conference. And tell that man to put on some jeans for Pete's Sake!

:)

"We’re focused on creating powerful experiences for people that aren’t limited to just work or just play but that marry the two in a way that’s easy-to-use, diverse, and enjoyable."

Heh. The day Microsoft makes a product that's "enjoyable" to use (outside of the XBox space, anyway) will signal the end days. Microsoft products almost universally are NOT enjoyable to use.

Oh, and if Microsoft thinks by this statement they are describing in some way what makes them *different* from Apple or any other company, they aren't doing a very good job of it. Apple's products "marry" work and play mindsets better than any others I've seen.

Cesar said:

"As a marketing guy, I wonder: is it a consumer phone or a business phone? My initial thought: consumer, seeing how it doesn't sync with Outlook or run Word/Excel."

Cesar, the days of "business" necessarily implying "Microsoft Products, e.g. Office & Exchange" are rapidly coming to a close. Businesses today need to be agile, and as a result, they demand flexibility. Microsoft products do not offer flexibility; they offer vendor lock-in. (Note I never said Apple's products *don't* offer vendor lock-in.) I'm saying that arguing that the Apple iPhone isn't a device suitable for businesses because it lacks support for Microsoft's business solutions is fallacious.

Cesar, what are your thoughts on AppleTV?  The potential there for them to draw in their customer base and start selling movies is huge.  Which gets to my next question, are you guys happy with how well Media Extender (MCX) was represented at CES?  Some of the products I saw..

NetGear EVA8000

DLink 510 MediaLounge

SlingMedia SlingCatcher

..not one of which makes is MCX compatible.  How can Media Center survive if you don't have partners developing hardware to extend it.

Beyond the issues of Zune and its feature set.  You have a bigger problem of how Connected Entertainment can take place without the support of major consumer electronics partners.  

I think I'll be going with a Blackjack or something similiar very soon.

Oh and P.S.

Kudos to Microsoft for the Vanishing Point game announcement at the Bellagio. It was incredible to watch.

(See it here: http://www.tweakvista.com/Article39054.aspx)

Also, what do you think about Sansa Connect?

Cesar, I'm not so sure there is anything developing....

We probably won't see a Windows Mobile or zune phone capable of competing with this thing until around 2010 at the least.  That's when Microsoft tends to wake up and realize a market is lucrative enough to demand their attention.  Business people use Blackberries and Windows mobile Phones, but consumers will eat this iPhone up no matter how much it costs.  And, Microsoft probably will do nothing about it for another 3-5 years. Count on it.  That may be a good thing though.  They need to take care of the XBOX and Zune and resist the temptation to copy Apple.  Now, how about that Zune Portable Gaming Device..... now, that'd be a development.

John - At the risk of iFanboy flaming, I think with Xbox 360, we have a much stronger story than Apple in the living room. In your back pocket, apple has a better story than us right now. Again, just my opinions. I actually think apple TV has some serious limitations, specifically the resolution on purchased video content not being hi-def. correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it DVD quality only.

I think iptv making Xbox 360 a set-top box is a strong move. And 360 already has HD movie rentals now.

Zuneless - interesting points. i'm glad you're commenting in this site. Let's take the line of thinking to a practical level - not talking about "microsoft business solutions," etc.  I don't know about you, but every business/office I've ever worked for uses Word for documents, and excel for spreadsheets. that the iPhone doesn't run these applications leads me to think it's a consumer phone.

Speaking of the Sansa Connect Wireless Internet MP3 Player...

I wish that MS would license Zune-DRM to Sandisk, for the creation of a Sansa-Connect-Zune MP3 player. There already is a Sansa-Rhapsody player, so Sandisk is open to deals like that.

http://www.sandisk.com/Corporate/PressRoom/PressReleases/PressRelease.aspx?ID=3669

As demonstrated by the lack of a flash-based Zune player, Microsoft's current hardware development program is too slow.

The official statement sounds like a PMC and PFS statement from a year ago... oh wait...

" I don't know about you, but every business/office I've ever worked for uses Word for documents, and excel for spreadsheets. that the iPhone doesn't run these applications leads me to think it's a consumer phone."

Cesar, I live in the business world every day. I can tell you that there are very few business people in my experience that actually use their phones to view MS-Office documents. The displays on these things are so small and the navigation methods so poor that, while it sounds nice, it just isn't very practical. It's all about the email, baby.

So I would disagree that the lack of Word or Excel on ANY phone means much. If anything, it means the experience on the mobile device needs a lot of work.

tim, do you have the quote?

Good call, Dan H. Is the email at your work outlook-based or something else?

I highly doubt if Apple partnered with LG, let alone anybody else (that's why they're in trouble with Cisco now - Cisco wanted interoperability and Apple said no). Apple is very arrogant and rightfully so, they've had many recent success with hardware (ipod, imac, macbook). I believe the rumor is that either Hon Hai or Foxconn has received a contract to make 12 million iPhones.

With that being said, I hope MS will create something from the ground up like xbox 360. No Toshiba rerun. Also I hope someday the Zune will support PFS. It's really a shame how MS screwed Real, Sandisk, Samsung, Creative, etc.

It's your quote, Cesar... The bit about the partners... The business part is non sequitar, Apple doesn't care, and the "enjoyable" part is a laugh.

"With a compelling portfolio of form factors ranging from the Motorola Q to the Samsung Blackjack to the Palm Treo, Windows Mobile appeals to a wide variety of people that want to stay on top of their jobs, connected to the people and information they care about and entertained all while on the go."

In other words, we're counting on other people to make good devices.

ah, thanks for clarifying tim! take care!

Cesar:

I'm glad you're happy I'm here commenting.

You said:

"Zuneless - interesting points. i'm glad you're commenting in this site. Let's take the line of thinking to a practical level - not talking about "microsoft business solutions," etc.  I don't know about you, but every business/office I've ever worked for uses Word for documents, and excel for spreadsheets. that the iPhone doesn't run these applications leads me to think it's a consumer phone."

Do you remember WordPerfect? I do. There once was a time when you would've found WordPerfect running in the overwhelming majority of businesses. (Well, at least those with computers! This was back in the very early '80s, after all.)

The point is, business is defined by a *need*, not by the brand or vendor of the application software that fills that need. If there are options that are some combination of 1) cheaper, 2) better, or 3) more open, businesses will choose them; particularly smaller, more modern and more agile businesses. A couple of clarifications. By open I mean two things: first, openness implies compatibility. A more open document format, for example, is able to be read, processed or edited by a larger number of devices or applications than a closed one; second, openness is a "political" stance, if I may call it that. A document format is more "open" if it is a well-defined standard for which anyone can develop without incurring licensing fees, risking legal action, etc. (Governments, for example, have a vested interest in "open" document formats, in much the same way they have an interest in "open" operating systems. Note the wholesale migration of some smaller governments to Linux solutions.) Another clarification: I think smaller, newer, businesses are more likely to choose non-Microsoft solutions because they 1) might not be able to afford expensive MS products, 2) want an open solution that doesn't tie them to a specific vendor, 3) don't have to migrate large numbers of old documents, etc.

So, I feel my argument stands: Microsoft doesn't "mean" business, just like Avid doesn't "mean" video production. (Smaller, newer, production houses might be more likely to choose Apple's Final Cut Studio suite, for example, because it is cheaper... one of those three compelling traits I mentioned earlier.)

Apple might not have Outlook on the iPhone. Or Word. Or Excel. In the long run, it doesn't matter. Those applications will be replaced, just like WordPerfect was supplanted by Word in the '90s. Apple partnered with Google for some iPhone functionality, like Maps. Whose to say they won't add support for Google's "Docs and Spreadsheets"?  (I know, I know. I hate to raise the G-word, seeing as how Microsoft thinks Google is their nemesis or some BS like that. I'll say this, though. For all their talk about "software as a service", Microsoft is having their ass handed to them in that department quite soundly by the big G.)

I'm sorry this has been a rambling post. I hope it makes sense!

Uh oh...the google's taking over the world angle.  No office comptability will hurt them with hardcore business users, no matter how people spin it.  It's a consumer phone. Period.  However, how many jobs require a Blackjack, Treo, or  Blackberry anyway?  Very litte, and the general consumer market is bigger than the business market so Apple will do just fine.  The rich kids will buy it at 600, prompting the other kids to want it...just in time for a dumbed down 200-300 dollar version.  

I find it very interesting that you won't be able to use a song in your library as your ring tone.  It seems so obvious that they would've included that.  Apple's not perfect either.  They leave obvious things out of products too (hello zune podcasting, wi-fi syncing, video sharing, and extras).

I totally agree with you: Steve Jobs is a great showman.  He really knows how to get a crowd excited and he always seems so casual and confident.  I also was wondering if it was a business or consumer phone.  My guess is that there's some unannounced feature(s) that will answer that question.

Sportsunit says: "I find it very interesting that you won't be able to use a song in your library as your ring tone.  It seems so obvious that they would've included that.  Apple's not perfect either. "

I work for a music company and I can tell you the reason you won't be able to make ringtones from your iTunes library has NOTHING to do with Apple. The major record labels are making a huge amount of money from ringtones and they are not about to let that revenue just disappear so easily.

Pogue cleared it up for me...at $500-$600, no syncing with outlook, no 3rd party apps, no java / flash (i.e. no youtube) I'll pass!

I'm still trying to figure out what is the killer feature about the Apple Phone..Multi-touch - old (developed back in the 1980s); Storage size - ok...but not enough for today; music / camera / video - old; voice-mail - this is nice; animated screen - no comment; light sensor - also old; proximity sensor - the concept is old (see active digitizers), but having it in a touch-screen may be new; accelerometer - old (used in the Toshiba M200); connectivity (802.11g / EDGE) all old...so it leaves one thing..

/Sarcasm & rant

The APPLE LOG! THAT MAKES THIS THE BEST THIS SINCE OXYGEN, THE BEST THING SINCE SLICED BREAD, THE BEST THING SINCE THE DISCOVERY OF FIRE, THE BEST THING SINCE THE DISCOVERY OF ELECTRICITY, THE BEST THIS SINCE THE DISCOVERY OF ANTI-BIOTICS AND MODERN MEDICINE...YES FOLKS, WHEN THE CURE FOR CANCER, AIDS AND WORLD HUNGER COMES, THE APPLE iPHONE WILL BE THE SUPREME DEVICE THAT OVERSHADOWS ALL OTHER DISCOVERIES!

/sarcasm & rant

BTW, I use a mac as well as a pc.

That should be..

The APPLE LOGO!

Zune has a huge disadvantage of entering a market 5 years late.  Zune marketplace needs to find it's way onto a phone.  1st or 3rd party cell hardware ASAP. There is no need to give Apple another 5 year lead with the phone.

The defining feature of the iPhone is iTunes, all the other features it has exist in current phones on the maket.  

Dear Zune,

Don't hate on the iPhone. Make something Better.

Regards,

John Q. Public

"Don't hate on the iPhone. Make something Better."

MS can't make something better until Apple releases it. They didn't know what to do next until Apple announced the Zune. MS now have something to copy.

Seriously, Peenus, there's no need to scream your head off about how bad Microsoft here. You can leave that to your iFanboy forums. Or, if you're trying to contribute positively, rephrase your sentences.

And Steve Ballmer seems to be much more successful than you're. Even if he sweats.

@ Peenus

Although MSFT doesn't have a branded phone, MANY touch-screen PDA phones exist with Windows Mobile (which has more functionality and TONS of 3rd-party software than the apple phone). As BlizzardBoy said, iTunes-DRM is the only key feature of the apple phone.

Why can't MSFT or someone else make a better phone? Are you saying that in this world of 6+ Billion people, Apple Inc. is the only group of people that have a brain and know what people want? Although apple has other products, the iPod+iTunes are the only sucessful products (looking at marketshare). They have a LONG way before they become the most sucessful company in the world (Wal-Mart).

All the apple phone has done for me is make the price of the PS3 seem reasonable, and the XBOX  360 / Wii seem extremely cheap!

192.168.0.1 said:

"Multi-touch - old (developed back in the 1980s)"

Care to point us to a link?

Tablet PC User said:

"Why can't MSFT or someone else make a better phone? Are you saying that in this world of 6+ Billion people, Apple Inc. is the only group of people that have a brain and know what people want? Although apple has other products, the iPod+iTunes are the only sucessful products (looking at marketshare). They have a LONG way before they become the most sucessful company in the world (Wal-Mart)."

The success of a business is not solely defined by market share. Would you say that BMW is a failure? They certainly don't have the greatest market share of vehicle sales. Apple as a business is a success story. The Macintosh as a product is a success story.

On what basis are you saying that Wal-Mart is the most successful company in the world? They are the largest retailer, the *second* largest corporation (after Exxon-Mobil), the largest employer in the US and Mexico, the largest grocery retailer in the US, and the largest toy retailer in the US. (Thanks, Wikipedia.) They are also one of the most hated companies in the world, and one of the most sued. They certainly aren't a company to be envied.

(Oh, and if you look at the recent numbers stated by Jobs in the MWSF '07 Keynote, Apple is the fourth largest retailer of music, just behind Target, Best Buy and... Wal-Mart. Keep in mind, Apple got into the music retail business in April of 2003. That's less than four years ago. From zero to fourth largest in so short a time? I guarantee Wal-Mart is scared out of their minds over that success story. And now Apple's added movies? But what about all of Wal-Mart's DVD sales?!)

Not to contribute to the fanboyism but Judging by the reaction of the iPhone, I would say Apple knows a thing or two about what people want or lust after.

Any bets MS will now come out with a touch screen phone similar to the iPhone (or LG for that matter)? The issue with most is, MS don't set the trails, but blatantly follows.

@ Zunless

Here are some links for the multi-touch!

1 - original video by Jeff Han is at http://youtube.com/watch?v=5JcSu7h-I40&mode=related&search= Listen to what he is saying in the first few minutes - that multi-touch is old.

2- http://www.billbuxton.com/leebuxtonsmith.pdf - This is a paper back in 1985 that shows how multi-touch was being engineered and improved (see references for other papers)

3- http://cs.nyu.edu/~jhan/ftirsense/ (An example of how multi-touch actually works).

4- http://www.tabletpcreview.com/price/default.asp?productID=17809&productFamilyID=897&display=priceDetail (Lenovo's X60 with multi-touch)

@ Zuneless...

Wal-mart is the world's most successful consumer company; apple is a consumer company; let's not go splitting hairs.

4th music provider? How far away is 1st from 4th (sales wise)?

@ Daveworld

It's odd since I spoke with some college students and they don't care much for the iPhone (they have phones with most of those features without the eye-candy). It seems that the enthusiasts and iFans are really the ones who are in an outrage!

@ Zuneless & Daveworld

Do either of you have a zune? Do you plan to buy one and use it as you main MP3/Video player? (just curious, no insult intended).

@Tablet PC User

I think there must be people as intelligent at MS than these at Apple's. However, they have passion for and extreme focus on the end-user. This is seriously lacking at MS.

As Jobs put it indirectly: the UI is key and boy did they reinvent the UI for something as common as a phone. It seems like nothing has really changed and yet, it's like a traditional phone and the iPhone come from 2 different planets.

I guess LG and apple were on the same planet LOL!

http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/11/iphone-and-lg-ke850-separated-at-birth

Plus, MS is only one player in the phone game (Nokia, RIM, Palm, Motorola, Asian brands). Unlike the computer world (OSX vs Windows), the phone world has much more variety. The iPhone has a lot going on, and sometimes less is more...

WM5 does iPhone main-screen.

http://www.slashgear.com/is-imitation-still-the-highest-form-of-flattery-123457.php

Of course apple threatened the designer.

Apple partnered with LG? Yeah, come on! Apple are innovative enough to do it on their own. Microsoft are not, so they had to take someone else's existing product and work with that. Apple have much more talent than to do something like that.

Tablet PC User said:

"It's odd since I spoke with some college students and they don't care much for the iPhone (they have phones with most of those features without the eye-candy). It seems that the enthusiasts and iFans are really the ones who are in an outrage!"

Funny after reading through the (Thoughts on the Jobs Keynote?) post, it seems that most are in agreement that it's a very nice phone and MS should get going with something to counter it - unless they're all iFans posting here:

http://zuneinsider.com/archive/2007/01/09/thoughts-on-the-jobs-keynote.aspx

I do not have a Zune but I know someone who has a son who has a best friend in class that has an uncle that works for Best Buy that gets discounts and planed to buy his dauther a brown Zune for christmas. OK I kid but i'm interested in knowing where MS is taking this before I jump on. I'm a gadget guy and not really tied down to any particular brand, although I also own an iPod. Where is the podcast intergration, bookmark feature, mass storage, lossless, gapless, audiobooks (audible) intergration, 60/80 gigs etc. etc.

the consumer vs business angle is ludicrous.  aint no body reading word and excel docs on their phones.  I bought 2 Motorola Q phones this past summer and audio/video was a joke...skipping and downright unpleasant.  The OS froze regularly.  Even mail was unreliable.  The only thing I enjoyed on the Q was the Agilent IM client I downloaded for it.

Completely looking forward to iPhone, and yes I will use it for business.

How about all you fellas meet me in San Francisco and we can get some multi-touch action going!!

Apple's iPhone has the strokeable hardware with the lickable interface and Zune is the one that squirts?

One question for iFans? Why do y'all hate MS so much. You would think MS took part a particular WWII event. One word...relax. Steve Jobs and Bill Gates are just people who have different ways of working, both with their own strengths and weaknesses. Steve Jobs is not going to save the world and neither is Bill. Just chill out, and have civilised discussions. I happen to think the iPhone is one of the best products of the past five years....and I am a MS fanboy. On the other hand months before the Zune launched iFans wanted to smash it with a hammer. Take a breather people, theyre just products.

Amen to that, Franco.

Well, I'm not a big gamer, and I'm going to switch to the Mac soon, but here's my two cents on the Xbox 360 download stuff.  But first, LISTEN UP CESAR! this could make bundles of cash for MS!   How about making a TV subscription option?  Suppose I'm a big fan of Show X.  Why not make it so that I could subscribe to a season of the show?  I just pay up front, then the first episode of the show is downloaded to my Xbox 360.  After I'm done watching the show for the first time, the next episode is downloaded, but I can keep the first one for 5 days (to watch it again or show it to friends) before it disappears.  I watch the second one, then the third is downloaded, and I have five days to keep the second one, etc.  Then just continue through the season.  Then I could watch TV on my own terms.  If you price this kind of subscription/rental thing at half the cost of the show on DVDs, it could really take off.  What do you think, Cesar?

Where can I find a complete list of smartphones with Windows Mobile 5?

@ John

Try this website:

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsmobile/smartphone/default.mspx

All you youngsters may not know about the history of MS. People hate MS because of it's historic business practices. Bill Gates is ruthless. Does OS/2, Sun and Netscape bring back any memories? The FACT is, they were sued by Europe and the U.S. DOJ and MS's resolution was to offer free software to everyone instead of paying (furthering attempting to saturate the market). Now in 2006, they screwed all the PFS partners which in effect screwed us, the users. None of the songs we purchased on Rhapsody, Urge, Napster, etc. will work. Not even WMA will work!! Instead of tossing money at Zune, they should have worked harder with manufacturers like Samsung, Creative to make a more stable and seamless integration between the existing PFS services. I'm no Apple fan, but does any other company other than MS have more reasons for people to hate it? MS is clearly the EVIL empire.

in defense of iFans I would agree that up to now Zune has missed the mark. and a Mac user can't even properly evaluate the Zune anyway, because Zune software is Windows only.  Very dissapointing.

I'd agree that Zune supporting PFS would do a world of good.  What happened to "embrace and extend"?  Zune should embrace Apples model and extend it with PFS.

Goople,

Just as disappointing as the iPod was when it first came out and couldn't be used on a PC?  Or later when all you could use was a firewire connection, not very common on PCs then, and a hack Apple released for MusicMatch Jukebox to get it to sync? Or later when the USB cable was released and you still had to use the firewire pigtail that was attached to charge the device?

All things come in time.  This is a version 1 product.  Nothing is perfect or meets every demand right out of the gate no matter how hard anyone tries.

You can please some of the people, some of the time...

AO:

yes "just as dissapointing".  So if Microsoft makes the same mistake as Apple did then, then they should get the same treatment, as in "I won't buy it"

no need to preach!  I never asked for a "perfect" product.  

AO:

That type of attitude is why MS feels they can release a product half-baked to the public. They know you will buy it regardless. In defense of Apple; when the iPod was first released, there where not much of a consumer DAP market (Geeks only), they blazed the consumer trail. They started with FireWire because it was Mac only at first and again the market was then tiny. When they came over to windows, the market was still small. MS is now entering at a point when the market is large, but that should not be an excuse, especially when other no-name and much much smaller companies first DAP has those same features the Zune is lacking. The market has matured and you must do the same as a company (any company) to keep pace. It does not have to be perfect no, but don’t release a 30 gig *hard-drive* DAP without mass storage (insane!), bookmarks, simple things like a clock/sleep function so the Zune can turn off say when you’re in bed.  These are all now common on DAPs in 2007. It’s like a new computer company entering the market and releasing a computer without USB2, Network functionality, and in all Brown (sorry, jab). Would you say it’s just there first computer?

Sorry, didn't mean to sound preachy.  I am just a tad annoyed at all the negative attacks aimed more at MS than the merits of the device.  For instance the hundreds of Amazon "reviews" by people who don't own one in order to drive the rating down.  They give the impression that Apple and the iPod never did any wrong.

The Zune's a portable music player, that's all for now.  I guess my expectations weren't as high as some.  I didn't want it to change the world or have a telephone in it or wirelessly sync to everything in sight etc; I just wanted it to play music and the occasional video.  All of which the device does very well.

Maybe when MS dreamed this up they just wanted it to be a cool music player that did video and pics and that was it.  They just wanted it to not be an iPod but offer the same general functionality.  Maybe to them that was keeping with the market.  And I'm sure you think that is where they wrong; not understanding the current market.  My take is the market is hard to understand because of such a variance in opinion and the domination of a single player.  I can imagine the "OMG it's a brown iPod" posts everywhere.  They chose to leave out "me too" features, though one could argue the entire device is a "me too", and just release a media player.

I can't think of anything else I need the Zune to do for me other than what it does.  I'll give you the clock and minor OS tweaks that could have been in there, the lack of those small feature gives the impression the software was rushed, but even on my 2G iPod that stuff was nothing more than filler in my opinion but that's just me.  I also have one in brown.  It looks much better then I think a lot of people give it credit for but again, just me.

Apple just reported that it sold 21 MILLION ipods in the 4th Quarter of 2006!

That's 21M suckas, sucka!

I'd rather stand alone with my Zune and enjoy wireless song sharing than be part of the Apple sheep-anista.

"I'd rather stand alone with my Zune and enjoy wireless song sharing than be part of the Apple sheep-anista."

Hmm, how is that possible? If you're alone, how can you share? With your other Zune in your back pocket? LOL!

Fact is, that's 21M less people buying a Zune.

It looks very pretty~~I really,really,really want one .