Looks like a nice phone but rather large. I'll stik to my Razr thank you!  

The Apple TV looks like a failure for sure.

Im a long time Zune fan...bought two zunes and everything on launch day.  But, I have to admit that I have never been this excited about a non-gaming device in my life.  They managed to best the Zune in the UI department, the interface just seems crazy.  I'm actually speechless because I've been a historical Apple hater, and they pulled it off well enough to sway one of MS's biggest supporters.  I was going to get a BlackJack or Moto Q, but I'll take a pass on that.  This iphone device looks like it will change the mp3 player and smartphone landscape.  Everything else that comes out will now look pale in comparison.  Sometimes, they get on my nerves but Apple just has IT.  Their design skills and innovation is just at another level now.  I can now see why Apple guys are so annoyingly faithful...they have good reason to be.

Wow, one of the best keynotes ever!

Im really excited about the iPhone, the GUI is awesome.

It looks nice for sure. I don't think it's for me though. I though that the full screen thing would be only on the mp3 player aspect which would have been cool. I don't think i can hand a phone like that. Its really a more developed motorolla phone with itunes then a full grown mp3 player. I reallllyy want a blackjack because the pocket pc and online. I have to be on osx all day at work and i dont have it on my phone >_>. I am all about compatibility and that is why i usually stick to products of the same brand ) or atleast try).

iPhone: Wonderful design... color me impressed.  Although it's just too big at almost 2 inches longer and 1 inch wider while just slightly thinner than my Treo 700w... and 8gb is not nearly enough to make me give up my 30gb Zune... Apple did it again.  

#1 Flaw = Cingular exclusive

Steve didn't mention what colours it would come in.

I'm reserving my judgement till then.

My view is that it really looks amazing. It has enough space for most music users to use too. It won't make me give up a full size MP3 player but I'm certainly going to get one. The UI is fantastic as is the resolution and the software on it.

Seriously as someone else said, its probably the best looking piece of hardware I've ever seen and thats saying something. It's the most excited i've been about a hardware device for years.

Honestly, the iPhone kinda excites me.  I'm one of those types who are like, "a phone is a phone!" and gets turned off by MP3/Phone hybrids... but man.

However, I hate the way it's a Cingular exclusive.  I'm not a huge fan.

If the iphone can do what it can do, then its fine piece of kit. The price plan quickly brought me down to earth and soured the taste alot.

Fact is, if the Zune really wants to compete, you really have to set it free. Remove all the lock downs, limitations and just give the public something that lets them feel like they have it all at their fingertips...no licence screen or fear of governmental retaliation.

I like the Zune, but i feel that its not moving fast enough and is just too tied down by laws and rules.  

Divx, Xvid, AVI, Ogg, wireless streaming, wireless syncing, and wireless downloading. Set it free!

The iPhone looks really amazing. I think it redefines so much in a portable device. Very exciting.

The crowd seemed to get subdued at the price though. You have to view it as a portable computer, media player, and cell phone... and then the $499 price seems okay.

Great keynote!

Harvey

http://www.zunerama.com

Man where the hell was the "Ohh and 1 more thing". No you need to walk off stage without any OSX update, no new hardware on an actual computer level, and no new iPod. Ive been waiting til this to decide to get a zune or iPod (expecting they would revel a new one). So now I can say I'm goin to be a zune owner.

Ohh and iPhone.....bull****.........i got verizon. lol

It doesn't have wi-fi. I need wi-fi. I need to browse the internet on wi-fi. Also I need tactile keys but i gotta try it first before I knock it. Other than that it does look beautiful.

im a zune fan and i want a friggin iphone lol, the interface and the fact the browser is complete it just looks super sexy, and i doubt samsung or moto will roll out a competitor in time for its launch...

But theirs downfalls at 500-600 USD i dont want to be forced into a 2yr cingular contract! Screw that, then theirs the fact its evdo instead of 3g... and on top of that theirs the battery which seems quite lackluster at 5hrs.

But you know what at 5hrs i'd accept that if it wasnt for the contract and being forced to use cingular... im in the caribbean so no cingular here anyway.

The UI is unbelievable... and i think Windows Mobile needs alot to catch up to it... but perhaps if we see the Zune Phone sporting a custom UI then we might have something hehe :) Zune's Interface curshes the ipod big time, but the iPhone crushes the WM5 interface :(

Also another huge negative, i love the big screen, but come on no one wants to tap text messages on a screen or dial on glass, i dont care if its multitouch or not its not tactile so i hate that and it might be the deciding factor on if i get one... i hope the zune phone sports much of the same but perhaps a sexy slide out keyboard? :) or a flip over keyboard to cover the screen ( I DONT WANT SCRATCHES! :) )

But gotta love 8gb, big screen, and sexy animations, WM5 + WPF + 8gb space + 4" widescreen and im sold :) oh and 5.5hrs battery hehe (screw evdo... WIFI+3G is the ticket!!!!!)

and i'll back this statement up

"Divx, Xvid, AVI, Ogg, wireless streaming, wireless syncing, and wireless downloading. Set it free"

Atleast give us playback support PLEASEEEEE

The iPhone looks great, everything I had wished could come out of Microsoft at CES. Now the Zune team has more challenges than before. The iPhone shines in all areas. It has WIFI, widescreen, movies, music, gadgets, etc. Now I am just left wondering what I should do with my Zune!

I do agree it is a revolutionary piece of hardware, but I'm not giving up my zune or my cell phone yet.  The iPhone is better for power users with lots of business.  But as a college student a decent phone and a zune (and a nintendo DS) is all i need.

The last time I checked, Cingular had poor satisfaction ratings with both J.D. Powers and Consumer Reports. A cell phone is only as good as the carrier it uses. I wouldn't change to Cingular for _any_ phone.

Things like real-world performance and durability of the iPhone are still unknown. As an example, will the touch screen end up being covered with fingerprints and scratches?

I have to admit I still can't believe what the iPhone can do. It is just AMAZING!

Of course it has also an amazing price, $499 4 GB model in a 2 years plan (not sure how expensive plan)...

Will Microsoft impress us that much in 2008 summer when we expect the Zune Phone to be released?

-- <a href="http://www.zune-online.com">Zune-Online.com</a> Share your Zune Experience!

It looks cool and everything but who in the hell can afford to buy a 500-600 dollar phone? Spending that much on a video game system is one thing but a phone? Dunno if the average teenager is going to lay that much money down.... I agree with the above poster though. Microsoft better start opening up the Zune with WIFI/internet features very soon or they will die. WHy is the Zune team moving so slow?

The hardware looks great, but, the price is tough to pay.  It seems targeted at professionals rather than the younger crowd, working professionals have the mulah to buy it. Congrats to Apple on this one.  

At first I was excited. But then, all touch. Hm, hope they fix the durability issues they ignore (all those smudges and scratches - no one will be able to use it!). And then, a ton of other things going on I don't care about and only drain battery  (full OSX, email, internet, etc). And then, 4GB or 8GB. If they're going to make an all-in-one device, then make an all-in-one device (I'd still have to carry around an actual mp3 player - my Zune). Oh and then the price (and carrier).

I just want a phone that can make calls and text (and maybe directions/traffic) with an mp3 player (that can hold a decent amount of songs). Is this too much to ask? Aparently.

Hmm. Well maybe I'm not so excited after all.

all touch and the fact it's a teen style device, with a businessman price might kill it

Whether you like apple or not - you have to admit, Steve's keynotes are always top notch, and he always manages to make a huge press following afterwards...

Here's my take -

iPhone - honest to god, i hope cisco sues them, they are blatently ripping off one of their trademarks, and apple deserves it for something this big.

Price - WAAAAYYY to expensive! What happened to the subsidies that cellphones typically get? How many people actually pay 600 for a cell phone.. I dont know, I NEVER would.

Carrier - Cingular? Are you kidding? Cingular is a horrible cell phone carrier, and apple would have been better off with Verizon, but im sure this phone would never have passed Verizon's muster, Cingular seems to sell any phone created by any company without actually testing it.. I'm very very curious to see how well this phone holds up to real world conditions.

SmartPhone - Are you kidding me? No respectable business person would ever use this product as a replacement for a Windows Mobile/Palm/Blackberry replacement, its impossible. Doesnt have Blackberry connectivity, nor does it have MS Exchange connectivity - what does it have?? Yahoo IMAP. Cmon Apple..

I feel that apple is beginning its slow and gradual decline.. More and more products that only work with each other, and have a specific function, they are just building a bigger and bigger wall between them and the rest of the world..

The iPhone - is it cool? Yes, would I want one? Yes. Is it for a business/power user? No. Is it for a teenager, college student? Yes. Will they be able to afford it.. Probably not.

After Bill's keynote on Sunday and Apple's today, I think Apple should be running scared.

Andrew, that's some funny stuff... Really... really funny.

very impressed with iPhone, except would have liked to see an iSight cam on the front.

I'm sure there will be an iPhone Nano followup to compete with phones like LG Chocolate.

Okay iPhone looks and functionality both rock. I'm a Zune and generally Microsoft fan but I am speachless.  Besides the aethetics which are HUGE, what Apple has done is get a carrier to subsidize (2 yr contract) a UltraMobile Computer.  If you look at all the Vista UMPC..minimium $1099.  That said, Apple has fired a salvo against Microsoft's MS Mobile and Entertainment initiatives.  This is going to be a war.  Microsoft has to respond in a major major way.

1.  Content and the best Content.  The IPTV stuff was great but carrier specific and not going to be pervasive for a long time.

2.  Devices and Sexy Ones.  Microsoft needs to slap hardware guys silly to get them to do get it right.  Where are the other Zune devices and inexpensive Media Extenders?

3.  Connected Entertainment...do it better than Apple can.  Which is going to be extremely tough because of Apple monolithic hardware as opposed to Microsoft's 3rd party partnerships.

4.  Partnerships.  Look at how Apple embedded Google and Yahoo functionality into this.  Microsoft needs content partners like yesterday.

4.  Killer Applications.  What happened to Zune WIFI announcements other enabling capabilities?

If you look at Apple's stock, you realize that Microsoft has to get it! and get it right!  They don't have a year as Apple draws 70 million iPod users to AppleTV or Cingular.

I just find it a bit ironic that everyone( including me) has no problem justifying a $600 price tag ( with 2 year commitment ) for the iPhone, but consider the PS3 ( which is basically a computer once you put Linux on it ) an outlandish waste of money.

I think the iPhone is interesting, but 4 things keeps it from being perfect.

1. What happened to dual battery?

I am not going to waste my 5 hour talk time watching videos. which defeats one of the primary purposes of the screen size. ( plus I am sure internet browsing must take up battery as well )

2. Size! Zune was pushing the limits. The Zune is at the perfect not quite a bulge but still noticeable. This iPhone is gigantic, about the size of a psp. Until they invent a manly purse or cool fanny pack, I can't carry this thing around.

3. Price.... Sure you are getting alot, but you are really limiting your potential audience with such a high price for a phone.

4. memory... 8gb is not enough for video content... end of story. I haven't even finished transcoding the majority of my videos and I already use 9 gb. and I have a fairly small music collection. Maybe it would work as a daily sync device with refreshed content, but I just can't justify 8gb....

Andrew, I guess Apple  has agreed with Cisco to use iPhone trademark, I even understand that an agreement has been signed. Besides, you have apple TV that make it easy for iPod users to stream videos to HD sets. I think that Microsoft should come up with a cheaper version of Mediacenter extender that should appeal to those not interested in buying XBOX 360. Customers need choice, and here I think that Apple has given then an alternative!!

I gotta say it looks pretty sweet.  499/599 is pretty pricey.  I don't think his Maths with the MP3 player + Smartphone is quite right, the logic is a little fuzzy.  It talks to exchange server which could help its cause.  I dont thionk there is going to be  amassive drive for them - ultimately many businesses supply smartphones and blackberrys for theior employees and don't give a toss if they can listen to the Who in decent quality sound on the way to work or not.

It's difficult to see the target market is.  The thing will sell though.   It's an amazing looking and sounding device and I want one!  The fact that the service provider could ram spikes through your eyes on a weekly basis will not stop people getting this phone.

It'll be interesting to see what happens after the initial rush and buzz.  Is the 2 year contract going to shoot it in the foot, Apple generally expect you to replace your device after 12-18 months to keep up with the kewl kidz.  Ther price could do it in, along with cingulars ropey rep.

I want to reiterate, I like it! i really do, it looks sweet, I'm just pointing out some practicalitys.  For me the price tag, the contract (I imagine it will be a similar situation with the european launch) and the question mark over interoperability with my PC make me a little uncertain.

I think he was right when he said how far ahead of the game they are in terms of hardware.  I have a feeling Vista Mobile will be something special, its just a matter of whether there is a device that comes close to the iPhone to run it on?

I LIKE the design of the iPhone a LOT! It's totally overkill for someone other than extremely high-end users, though, so you can count me out as buying one. Not to mention I hate Cingular. (I would have preferred it to be an "unlocked" phone, if possible.)

I have to give Apple credit: One thing I like about them is that they look at industrial design and sees the opportunity before they see the problem. I say that because there could be lots of problems with their phone model. But who knows?

The Apple TV, however, is simply an overpriced SlingCatcher, so I totally don't like the idea.

Just my thoughts...

I was hoping to hear some Zune news out of CES. It's still gen1 (only a few months out) but I didn't buy b/c it only has a 30GB HD. Let's hear about what is coming in Zune land down the road. I don't want an iPod.

I agree with Freddie.  Apple TV is the immediate threat for Microsoft and they need to introduce a cheap Media Extender like yesterday.  I see no reason why this couldn't be under the Zune brand name. $150 should be the target price to make it a compelling arguement.

Speaking of Media Extenders I find it hard to believe that one major consumer hardware manufacture at CES announced they would make Media Extenders.  That has to be remedied in a major way.  One suggestion/question to Microsoft, you know these HD-DVD players with ethernet ports that are rolling out...why couldn't they be updated to have Media Extender?

To correct some mistakes I've seen in the comments, the iPhone gets 5 hours of battery time when watching video, surfing, etc. If it's just audio use, it's 16 hours. No word on standby time yet.

Anyway, the iPhone is one incredible piece of kit. Full Mac OS X, innovative interface, GSM+EDGE, 802.11b/g WiFi, Bluetooth 2.0+EDR. This is the smartphone that dreams are made of.

Oh, and it does support push IMAP, which, I believe, is the same technology used by Blackberry.

Apple's got my $500 come June, and another $500 to purchase one for my wife.

iPhone is a winner, no doubt about it.

I think it has the potential to be a great phone ofr personal or business.  Not every business person has a blackberry.  I would dare say most people with blackberry/windows phone are in a corporate environment which still leave it wide open to others.  I love the phone,  hate it being restricted to Cingular.  Wonder if it can be unlocked?  The key for me would be how flexible is the phone.  Can I set it up to be biased to things that are important to me like lengthy call history, priority on phone features and texting? How much can you drill down and customize it and still retain user friendliness.  And how useable the touch interface is. It kills most smart phones in both size and attractiveness It is only slightly bigger than an ipod nano  lots thinner than most nokia's, palms/ windows and blackberry's

Why do so many of you think that the phone is big? go here: http://www.apple.com/iphone/technology/specs.html

See that? It's the same width as the Zune, it's .1 inches taller, and it's .12 inches thinner. You know what that means? It's slightly smaller than the Zune. Also, it's about the same size as a RAZR when it is closed (a little thinner, but slightly wider and taller).

the iPhone looks pretty impressive... it's the first phone (i know of) to be fully touch scree, to have good, robust media software, and to have a screen that makes the images look good.  Microsoft needs to "pull a Zune" and come up with something to outdo the iPhone.

Apple TV looks ...nice I guess.  A little pricey and only good for expensive high def tvs... looks like they're leaving out everyone else.  If you plan to stream everything off a computer, why would you need a 40 gig hard drive?  Just another thing you don't need but apple insists on... Why couldn't they just put a USB port that supports removable storage on instead (it has 1 USB port "for service and diagnostics")?  Anyways, the whole concept kinda looks like a Media Center Extender to me.

Personally, I though Apple shoulda at least announced a new iPod, considering the Zune is some good competition.  I was expecting something that had a little more exciting UI and wi-fi support....

Anyways, a little off topic, but im glad the Zune is gonna have games by '08.  Can't wait to see how good they are.... I'd like to see some wi-fi enabled games

My take:

1) Looks & form factor as a gadget: Great

2) Looks & form factor as a smart phone: Average

3) Carrier Lock down: Bad (I don't think people would ditch their existing contracts with their service providers just to get a iPhone from Cingular). So either I would buy this if I'm an existing Cingular customer or close to my end of contract with my service provider.

4) Price: Not too expensive, given that most of the smartphones are more or less in that range.

5) Market: I am not too sure what is the target market for this device? Can't be power business users with no push sync unlike blackberry or WM 5.0 phones, and looks a little on the higher side on price for teens.

6) Battery Life: Good

Overall Rating: Good++ (7/10)

@Woody56292

The iPhone is smaller than the Zune.

iPhone: 4.96800 cubic inches

Zune: 6.1248 cubic inches

The iPhone also has a larger 3.5 widescreen display, that has two times more area than the Zune.

Off the cuff (cribbed from my comment over at ozymandias.com)

- This is obviously meant to battle PDA/SmartPhones, not cell phones.

- The network lock, Cingular/AT&T, ranks high on the suck scale.  Their service is great in some areas but craptastic in others.  This pretty much makes it dead to me.  Extra suck for the fact that unlike normal phone vendors you're not going to get some slight knock-off for the other carriers, like the different kinds of RZRS.

- How are the buttons activated?  How about those cold weather days, what about using it with gloves?  I live in Denver, this stuff is important to me :)

- Scratch-proof?  Phones, even smartphones, take an amazing amount of abuse.  How sexy does it look after being shoved in the same pocket as your keys or dropped on the ground?  Depending on how the screen is activated you're going to have some interesting looking covers for this since you can't obscure the entire front.

- Is there *any* tactile feel to this thing?  When answering calls in the car or txting I work more by feel than look.  Heck, I can do an amazing amount of things on my phone without ever looking at the screen.

- I love the concept of course, it looks sexy as hell and it feels very "of the future", Minority Report style.  Apple is known for rocking on the hardware front though so I'm sure they have some answers to these questions but I'm curious just how well they answered them.

The iPhone represents a paradigm shift in the consumer electronics market.  When you look at Jobs' slide showing buttons from various 'smartphones' and how they "can't change" it makes you take a long hard look at the Zune's hardware interface.

I agree with Sportsunit and Bazza above.  Why are Zune owners being left to languish with only a semblance of wi-fi capability?  Why are we stuck with only a few playable media types?  Why can't we wirelessly sync our Zunes?

With such a dramaticly different and able consumer electronics device you can't help but look at your zune and feel humbled.  But Microsoft can change that by actually releasing some fucking updates.  

Get that content out there on Marketplace and open this device up, because right now the better bet may be selling your zune, using the money for apple stock and then selling it to buy an iPhone in June.

iPhone is an example of what a an real design engineer can do.

Is Zune designer still at work?

You guys better packup and go home.

I was waiting to see what was said in the keynote before I bought either a Zune or an iPod.

The upshot? Just ordered a Zune online.

Personally for me the iPhone is too delicate to be my phone and too small to be my media player.

Following are unclear to me:

If the target audiance are big business guys:

Who the hell is using yahoo email.

mail domains are locked through firewalls.

is there any security policy enabled around these device? otherwise how end-user's contents are protected?

is this PUSH/Pull mail delivery? it is auto push.. wait for NDA' lawsuit ...the balckberry paid around 614 million.

If it is teens:

you got the best device in the planet! one of the best design i never seen.

Jetsetter, not sure about the 'long hard look' at Zunes hardware inteface.  Hasn't every DAP, including Apple got a hardware interface?  As for someone elses comments about how far down you can drill into and customise iPhones UI, I think it depends.  I have a feeling this is more Apple than  iPod.  By that i mean that iPods are rigid and infelxible, this has a fully functionin OS, which would imply that you can pretty much do what you want to it?

I hope so, one thing that has always annoyed me bout iPods is the UI, despite the fact that i don't like iPod it's really good to see Apple trying something new again, I reallyt tought they had gotten complacent withe iPod.

Ultimately whether you land on Apple's side or MS, it's really cool that Apple are here.  Without them, I don't think MS would be working so hard to produce cool stuff.  Hardware it's hard to compete but having used Vista for a while, the software is definitely there or there abouts.

Equally MS's pervasive desktop domnimation drives Apple to innovate.

Basically competition drives innovation, I think we are in for some cool stuff coming out of all sorts of places over the next 12 months.

People were talking about how nice the Zune interface is. This will blow it away. The way you drag a list up and down on the screen looks awesome. No dinky little wheels (which don't scroll but have buttons), like the 1980's Nintendo  console controllers.

I was able to play with my (MS Employee) friend's Zune for about 30 minutes. I really liked the FM radio, but the product and larger screen didn't really excite me. The plastic made it feel very Wal-Martish, almost like a TV remote, one that you can toss around. The iPod and iPhone are elegant pieces that makes you excited! Brings about passion and enjoyment. You treat it like jewelry--something you cherish. I think that's the main difference between the two designs. Like comparing a BMW to a Ford. Sure they both will get you where you want, but how do you feel driving it?

Matt, I meant the buttons on the bottom of the front of the Zune being hardware, wheras you have one continuous input over the face of the iPhone.  They are both hardware, but I meant that in terms of physical buttons.

I'd also throw in that there is a drawback that the iPhone does not apparently include VOIP.  Without VOIP, the product is locked down in a big regard.  In a wi-fi metro area you may not need a carrier at all.  A forced two year contract says to me that VoiP won't be an option.

Definately a good looking phone but without the true 3G I am not ready to shell out $500 or $600. EDGE just does not cut it so maybe in future when it has true 3G I will visit it.

Also it is pretty stupid to compare iPhone to Zune. They are two seperate category of product so please lets talk some sense.

To Rohit: Zune will become more than just a music player so its quite easy to compare. It's already announced by Peter Moore that gaming will be added to Zune by mid-2008 and its likely you'll see far more than just music and video so comparing them seems far. It does music and video yet combines a fantastic UI and navigation system with what looks like one of the best screens around. Making it smaller than the Zune is a masterpiece of design work from them.

I'm not convinced i want my email, entertainment and phone to be the same device.  Not only for battery life reasons.  But Apple did a great job on the UI it has to be said.  I would be very happy with a Dash for phone and a seperate merged Zune/Portable xbox for entertainment.  If they could talk via bluetooth so much the better and an Aero UI of course :-)

We should be able to access our home Media Libraries from anywhere.  Microsoft should allow access to our home content libraries  remotely.  Eliminate the need to sync everything before you go out the door.  Microsoft can do achieve this with SOFTWARE! Media Extender over broadband connection.

John in S. Florida is right.  How about access to my media library from somewhere else?

I'm assuming the iPhone will allow you to download mp3's from a website (such as the ones listed in Cesar's Friday downloads) using the safari browser and immediately add them to your iTunes library.  I'd love to just be able to update my Zune's library remotely.

When I first saw it, I felt "wow!". But then I started thinking about it:

1. I don't want a smartphone

2. I don't want Cingular

3. I don't want to pay $500 for a 4GB music player, plus $960 minimum for the privelege of using it (lowest individual Cingular plan for 2 years)

4. I wouldn't use half of the features

The UI is awesome, the widescreen is beautiful, the touchscreen is darned snazzy, and bluetooth earbuds are fantastic!

But when I think about what I need...this new iPhone isn't it.

It really isn't a competitor to Zune. They are in completely different market segments. Although many bloggers will pile on the Zune with this.

In fact, most people conflate the MP3-player world with Zune's targeted segment. Zune is a 30GB HDD media player...it's direct competitors are the IPod 30GB, and the Zen-M 30GB. Any other comparisons are apples/oranges.

The snarky comments:

"Wow...a $500 Nano with extras...."

"What..no click wheel?! This thing stinks!" (Well...Iboys said that about the Zune...)

"$40/month for an MP3 player? great idea..."

I was waiting until after this week to make my decision. But now that I've seen Apple's news, I'm going with Zune. (If Apple announces a widescreen 30-100GB Ipod...and Ipod ONLY...I might reconsider...but for now...)

RomeoDude..."why would you need a 40 gig hard drive?"  I'm betting that in the future they plan on letting consumers download content directly to AppleTV without a computer.  Thats why I think Zune firmware should be upgraded to add Media Extender capabilities.  You get wireless extender capabilities around the home and get high-def capabilties when docked. Zune needs a new dock with HD output. Thats how I'd do it if I was product manager.

You guys, this is more than a phone, an mp3 player and all of the things it claims to be-this is a huge threat to Microsoft. If, and that's a big if, it becomes successful, it will not only greatly hurt the Microsoft brand with the Zune project but also the Windows brand as people will be exposed to the Apple OS, and if they become attatched to it, then that means that Windows also can take a blow. Now, I am a huge MS affecionado, but even I have now concluded that is not what most were expecting, Apple has really now gotten everyone's attention, and our pathetic "buzz" at CES has just disappeared into thin OS X air...how sad. Cesar...I think it's time you guys post-pone the waiting to release better versions now and get to the real competing because right now, it's not really cutting it and I'm not going to ever want to have to face my friends and have to say that Zune is now officially dead and Microsoft has lost...neither am I or all of the other Zune and Microsoft followers going to like this, so please...for everyone's sake...do something!

 I have a brown Zune, I like it.  But I get everyone's distaste for the Zune.  They assume Microsoft wants to get into the game, get exclusive licenses, and bully Apple like they've done with their other products.  I can't disagree, but then Zune still feels very unfiinished.

 If you lose the phone part, the iPhone is still impressive as a player.  A highly accurate touch screen, running a full blown OS, with a proximity detector and knows which way it is turned (Vertical or Horizontal)  The fact that it connects to a store that actually offers videos for the video portion of the player is also a good idea (Talking to you Microsoft)

 I think internally at Microsoft, you know what is coming down the pipe for the Zune.  You know there is probably podcast support, movies to download, maybe some games, Xbox 360 connectivity support, better sharing features, etc.  But on the outside, all we've gotten is a music player and a cumbersome way to encode video.  

 I don't think Microsoft saw this much coming from Apple.  It's obvious the next non-phone iPods will also use OS X, have the larger touch screen features, and cost less.  At that point, if the Zune software hasn't improved, Microsoft should hang it up.  

 In the meantime, I'll keep using my Zune and assume Microsoft has plans to release some decent upgrades sometime before then.

All I can say is ... wow. Apple does it again.

Cesar, please tell me Microsoft has something good up their sleeve before the 2008 game launch thing. The Zune can't stay this "basic" for another year. Lets open it up. Make it ummmmm cool.

The industry new this was coming, now I just hope that Microsoft, Nokia, Sony Ericsson and etc have prepared themselves appropriately.

I expect WM6 to impress, but it probably won't. Maybe I'll just put faith into the fact that people stick with what they know. How many people buy Nokias because they know Nokia's interface and quality? Most of them. And we all knwo that Apple's portable products break... all the time.

The iPhone hits alot of correct notes. It's beautiful, super easy to use, powerful and compact. I don't think price is an issue. Not everyone has to buy it for it to be a huge success, and alot of people will buy it. Multipoint touch displays are the way of the future. Its flaws are: Cingular exclusive, EDGE (not 3G), no wireless sync for music.

Zune should: (a) get a much bigger hard drive (flash drives should be integrated into the phone ala iPhone, and 40gigs isn't enough for most young people's mp3 music collections), (b) unlock wireless sharing with respect to mp3s and data files (if laptops can do it, why not the zune?), (c) come out with a full screen touch multipoint device (it's a much better interface then the iPod or zune) if that's cost effective (I assume the iPhone is subsidized by the Cingular contract).

Actually, the price isn't that high, esp with all the features, innovations. North Am is just way behind the curve in the Smartphone market compared to Europe/Asia. People who have been importing HTC/O2/Eten/I-mate etc have been routinely paying $600US+ for smartphones that have large screens, WM5, wifi, etc. I just can't believe how ridiculously sexy this iPhone is though. How can I ever go back to a Treo or Blackberry?!?

Microsoft...I'd start thinking about how rollup displays & voice could incorporated.  Those are the only elements that I believe have the potential to raise design standards and inspire people.

Apple does sexy whereas Zune does grunge.  Thats the image I have from marketing, design and functionality.

John, you have been hitting the nails right on the head.  Any person that works with MS tech and use the software know exactly where MS is challenged.  Cesar, the Zune must finally reach the missing puzzle piece it needs to be to start to compete.  MS-DVR support.  Why buy t.v. shows when you already have it recorded.  Next, Vongo portable device support.  I saw where they had an agreement for a Vista Media Center Plug-in.  You need to get that for the Zune too.  Third, John has it right.  It needs to be a portable Media Center Extender.  Make it what Origami should have been.  Now on the iPhone.  The looks were the only thing that impressed me.  Everything else has been here, been available to us as WinMobile users.  Though the last laugh will probably be on the consumers.  Cingular uses a proxy server to force you to wap sites.  You have to be tricky to get a full website to load like he did on stage.  I noticed Bill's phone sunday night looked similar to some of the elements on the iPhone.  Good luck Cesar, you are going to be busy.

Slightly unrelated but another thing I think Microsoft needs to be aware of is the confusion they are creating in the entertainment space.  Although XBox 360 IPTV sounds exciting. There isn't any news if this will work with Media Center/Extenders.  I thought Media Center was the core entertainment platform which they have been harping how many units have sold.  But this XBox 360 news doesn't seem to fit into that strategy.  What unifies them and Zune, to create a easily understood and standard experience.

Zune just got pwned.

Sorry Microsoft guys.

Let's see....

Apple TV...Where's the DVD/HD-DVD/Blu-ray drive? You mean that I can't watch all of my DVDs from one box but I have to switch over cables etc?!? Xbox 360 > Apple TV. Bring out a cheaper media center and bye bye Apple TV.

iPhone...Wow, Apple really hit some good spots with this one. Is it me or does the iPhone UI look like Vista's Aero glass? iPhone's Biggest flaws:

#1- Cingular only. Sorry, but I don't want to get my family and friends to switch from our "in" network (reminds me of the switch from ICQ to Yahoo/MSN Messenger back in the day)

#2- Price. $600 for 8 gb?!?! And people were complaining that the zune was too small for video at 30 gb? I gotta see how the kool-aid drinkers like Pogue, LaPorte and Mossberg are going to defend this size.

#3- EDGE?!? Dial-up for google maps! No way a company is going to trust Yahoo's IMAP to keep their sensitive data when Yahoo's mail was hacked a few years ago. Blackberry server / MS Exchange server > Yahoo IMAP!

#4- Battery life at 5 hrs talk time. pfftt.. "So charge every night boys and girls!" My wife charges her treo once every 4 days!

So Zune team, I hope you realize that all apple did was to create a multi-touch passive digitizer. Don't sleep on this one guys. Remember that MSFT is seen as the antidote for APPL. So, if you guys have something that is competing with your name on it, you'll be good. Don't leave it up to the partners to do this one.

You may have a big winner with the Windows Home Server. Get that to host music, videos and photos and allow streaming to the zune / zune-phone over wifi/3G and make it sexy looking! Also, don't limit it to any specific carrier (GSM / CDMA are both launched together). Keep the price under $400.00 and life should be good. Get the Mac Business unit (or some other ms group) to help you out if you're running short of ideas.

"So Zune team, I hope you realize that all apple did was to create a multi-touch passive digitizer."

You obviously haven't checked this out. Apple's implentation of voicemail alone makes it worth paying for?

Oh, and where's the HD DVD drive in the XBox?

And what does WHS have to do with phones? Am I going to carry a server on my shoulder to make phone calls?

to quote from apcmag.com

"2. Battery life sucks: Five hours of talk/browsing/email or 16 hours of audio playback? Look, we're not saying the iPhone isn't an amazing device, but you're going to want a charger on your desk at home, one in your car, one on your bedside table...

3. Built-in battery: It must be the only mobile phone on the market that doesn't have an easily user-replaceable battery. We know from the iPod that batteries age pretty quickly, but who wants to send their phone back to Apple for servicing when it needs a new battery? I don't want to have to go back to my dowdy old Nokia while Apple swaps the battery. That's a major flaw. "

@Tablet PC User

The iPhone GUI is more "Plastic" than "Glass". Sure they look similar, MS got "inspired" by Mac OS X interface.

#2 Its called iPhone, not iVideo. Its main use is to make and receive calls. Music, Video, and Internet are great extras. Just wait for the 6G iPod, I am sure will share some of the innovations of the iPhone.

What can i say! Apple raised the bar again.  I just hope MSFT sees this as a challenge to keep on innovating.  Good luck guys!

> It doesn't have wi-fi. I need wi-fi.

Yes it does.  Steve Jobs demostrated all the Internet capabilities using wi-fi.  He says the device automatically selects the appropriate connection method based on availability and function being used.

I loved the way Steve Jobs started the iPhone intro by describing it as three revolutionary devices, but then lead the audience into realizing it was actually one device.  Brilliant.

What did I think of the keynote? Totally awesome. Steve just puts Bill to shame. Bill is lame and boring. This is not just because he has boring stuff to show, it's his personality.

Gates' displays of what he sees the future bringing are a complete joke. lame, lame, lame. Steve shows something he has now.

OK, now details are emerging it would appear that Apple, while not telling big old porkys, have kind of implied things that aren't true.

You can't sync wirelessly, they really could have dealt a blow to MS wby making that possible.

No expandable memory - why?!  Oh wait.  it'll spoil how it looks.

No removable battery - no massive thing, Apple don't expect you to hold on to their devices long enough for the battery to degrade.

No Exchange/Office support.  errrrm.  I thought they were after smartphone users?  you know.  those people who will actually be able to afford the device.  And use their phones for work.  In Offices.  That mostly use Windows.  And Office.  And Exchange.

It's also 1st party software only.  Of course, when Apple do draconian proprietory it's cool.

It'll still sell to the people who have Apple tattooed on their retinas.  I've been using Smartphones for years and yesterday was all up for holding off getting an upgrade in a few months in favour of the iPhone at the end of the year but unless it is actually useful to me as a Smart device I'll have to stick with archaic tactile interfaces!

It's a shame because what Apple have done is awesome, it's just no use as a smartphone replacement which is what he was touting it as.

Know something ...

The HP iPAQ H6315 released now well over 2 years ago is/has ... a touch screen, internet browser, camera, audio recorder, IM machine (yahoo, msn, aim), MP3+WMV player (Windows mediaplayer), quad-band GSM phone, bluetooth, wifi, eMail and Office machine (Word, Excel, mail, exchange sync, etc), Dial-up-networking (use as wireless modem) has incredible 3rd party application support (pocket streets is a great example), 3rd party application development tools, removable battery, external media (SD) and cost just $499 (1 yr t-Mobile contract) ... that is an example of great business smartphone.

The iPhone has less software (+ no 3rd party software), 4G non-removable media storage, non-removable battery ... it has some great UI smarts and couple of fancy features (like the visual voicemail) ... but, it flunks as a business smartphone (not enough business apps e.g. no Excel and no 3rd party apps) ... it's great (though pricey) only for those who use a basic phone and an small capacity iPod ... but ... it will do well in the market (so hope you bought apple stock in december) ...

BTW: Touch screens are a pain long term ... humans hands are by design ... messy.

This is what true innovation looks like. Innovation is not taking a warmed over toshiba player and adding wifi to it... This is a landmark event...

You wan to know what the next generation iPod looks like? You know the mythical video iPod? Just like the iPhone but a smaller form factor and a touch screen.  It will be priced at the exisiting iPod price, that is how they are going to bring down the component price.

All of you nay-sayers about multitouch ought to know that this is not your father's touchscreen technology. Reminds me of the dorks in 1984 who said that the mouse and a windowing interface will never take off (even giving it a derogatory term-- wimp...). Look at where we are today.

The next gen iPod will regin supreme over the stand alone PDA (a dying product in any case) and the continue its dominance over the Digital music space...

Brown in the color of the collective pants of Bach, Balmer and Gates. Be afraid, very afraid.

heheh!  I love the objectivity of iBoys.  Here we are highlighting all of the things the iPhone does well but also suggesting some things that may cause it some problems competing with the PDA and Smartphones, and all you get in response is 'Apple are the Messiah!  Steve said it, so it must be so!'.

None of you have answered the interoperability problem.  If the PDA market is truly dying, how is Apple goign to take over?  The Apple way is to refuse to allow their stuff to work with anything but other Apple stuff.  Now I'm fairly sure that MS have landed themselves in hotwater many years ago for this exact issue, so how Apple get away with tying you down to doing things exactly their way I don't know.

All i'm saying is, right now, the point of a PDA isn't as a stand alone PC but rather as an extension of your desktop.  And the the hell uses a mac?  Statistically I mean.  As a Video iPod it would rock all the way to the bank if the capacity was there.  As a Smartphone it would rock if the functionality was there.  As a small capacity player it would rock if the size wasn't there.

As it stands, I think we need to wait to see the next load of products in the range, a massive increase in Apple's desktop saturation or Apple acknowledging that other people can write software.  

It has no business use but as an additional product for people who don't need all that stuff?  Perfect.  they need to change their target market, this won't dent the smartphone market because it can't do what smartphones do.

If I can sync it and get push email with my company's Exchange server, it would be compelling. I have doubts about the soft keyboard. I have a T-Mo Dash now, love the tactile feedback of a real QWERTY keyboard. Feature-for-feature, it bests the iPhone (I sync with my Media Center box for music/tv, with Exchange Server for contacts/email, plus OneNote mobile, and Pocket IE). Apple made a prettier interface and some clever hardware choices. In all, I welcome the competition to the market. Let's see how Windows Mobile responds, and how device makers like HTC respond.

I assume since it's full blown OSX, that 3rd party apps will be supported.  Microsoft could create an exchange client if they so desired....if not there's always IMAP4<->exchange

of more interest to me is the potential of Google Business apps being agressively ported to iPhone.  This is an obvious given.  

Apple is like a hot blond that's only good for few things, as where Microsoft is like average looking girl who can get the job done (work, cook, clean, feed the kids); and still have some time for a little manicure. The hot blond is only fun for a short period until it gets worn out. The average looking girl would definitely outweigh all the iCandy with what she can do.

Apple’s iPhone is definitely a breakthrough in phone designs, but I cannot see its functions worth forking over 500-600 dollars. I often use my stylus to write quick notes, grocery shopping list for example; quick and dirty but it gets the job done as I would expect. Simplicity should not limit functional ingenuity. Apple seems to do very well in limiting people to its own proprietary hardware. I for one would like options, where competition will drive the price down.

A mobile phone is meant to be handled. However, after foreseeing all the scratches the iPhone can attract while sitting alongside my keys and headphones, I would be afraid to use it while thinking of every scratch that would instantly degrade the phones reselling value. Oh and I hate fingerprint smudges.

This phone will certainly attract people who like to break down their money to keep up with the latest technology, even if they can’t afford to do so.

I think the iPhone is the iNewton version 9.0 if they kept that design team (maybe they did?).

All kidding aside, Apple did a very nice job with this product -- but the devil, as always, is in the details: how well does it make phone calls, how is the battery life in practice, how well do you sync calendar/contacts, etc.  What we've seen so far is very very impressive, but I will hold off on final judgement until it's released and some folks actually use the thing.  If I were to buy one, I'd be concerned if the device (especially the battery) would last out the 2-year commit -- I'd buy a service plan.

For those who are talking about the Zune Phone - slow down...  The Zune is an infant, iPod is on 5th-gen.  I think 6-gen iPod will look much like iPhone without phone (and may be more successful than the iPhone).  Zune doesn't need a phone right away -- follow your business plan and take small steps well.  Don't try to jump the chasm and fail.  Make a good portable media device first.  Make a good phone down the road a bit (or let the Smart Phone folks continue on their business plan).

The Apple TV I think is a more interesting product.  More than an 'extender', it appears to 'sync' content (presumably so you can watch/listen to content from your iTunes library with your computer off?).  Very impressive.

It will be fun to watch how Microsoft's "home server" vision plays out against the Apple TV.  I don't think there's a clear winner and loser here - market is plenty big for two.  I think Tivo is the unfortunate loser right now.  Between Apple TV, Sling, and MS's push towards media center in Vista, home servers, extenders, and IPTV - we will have many options to consider for our entertainment distribution technology.  Perhaps MS will brand some of these products as Zune devices?  Letting D-Link represent MS for HD Extenders hasn't really worked so well.  Maybe time to step into the game with a Zune-branded device?

I think a Zune-branded media center extender to compete against Apple TV would be cool and more attainable than quickly going after the iPhone.  At the same time: add MS-DVR support to entire Zune line, and allow Zune handheld to be used as a remote for the Zune MCX (think Sonos).  Just my thoughts...

Some great ideas HBEaker.  I have been touting the idea of using the existing Zune Portable as a Wireless Media Extender for awhile.  Coupled with a new HD Zune Dock we'd have the complete package at low cost.  Scenarios range from walking around your house while content is streamed to your portable Zune or docking it to enjoy the experience on your fat TV..all WITHOUT SYNCING so much.  But your idea also lends itself to a viable solution...and might be the only solution if Zune Portable hardware isn't up to the task for wireless MCX. No matter what, we are in agreement that Zune needs to have MCX capabilities.

As far as Mobile phones go, I think Microsoft would be smart to stick to their Mobile and Live strategies.  Ultimately they can create some Web2 stuff on their Zune.net site to act as a gateway to our home libraries (perhaps on Home Server) and MarketPlace.  Then only a simple link to Zune.net would be needed on your Windows Mobile.  Its all about timing the market because you don't want your competition to continue running away with marketshare as you build those technologies up.  That said, I give it two years.

If the zune would include lossess audio support on the device nothing apple says would matter to me.

The zune needs to support

wma lossless

.flac

.shn

Microsoft's Zune marketing just had its legs cut off. Microsoft's Zune music player captured nearly 2% of the music player market in December on the promise of its WiFi sharing capability. But iPhone has just eclipsed Microsoft's bet on Zune by incorporating both WiFi and cell capabilities, making Zune look so last year. And no one should be expecting that Apple won't extend its existing iPod line with iPhone technology.

The result: Apple could host another of its famous "Special Events" in just a few months and trump all of Zune's existing capabilities with an iPod featuring iPhone's touch interface and sexy form factor at a $299 price point -- and Zune will be over.

So Apple's the hot blond who's only good for a few things? Does that make Vista a peroxide blond?

More seriously: we've all known that Zune was the thin end of a MS wedge into the media world. But even this long-time Apple user was impressed with the scope of Apple's current ambition. And who the hell knows how it will all shake out? Both companies have done some major stumbling in the past. All very interesting, though.

... that will force the lid off Microsoft's business model. This will force major changes on how business is done. Steve has dropped the funk bomb.

Think about it:

Microsoft accepts the gambit: It enters into the phone market with hardware thus pissing off all of its mobile phone partners. Fool me once (play for sure) shame on me, fool me twice.... these guys are going to be utterly pissed at Microsoft. This basically positions(taints) Microsoft as an unreliable partner. Everyone, will think twice before doing biz with MS thus undermining their hegemony.

Microsoft declines the gambit: iPhone takes over the most lucrative segment of the phone business and expands into other categories, much as it did with the iPod. Microsoft inability to deliver the goods to compete against Apple makes the horizontally integrated model obsolete... overtime phone companies will spend to develop their own software.

Any which way you look at it, horizontal integration does not work in the CE market place.... Apple has forced Microsoft's hand...

Zune has its legs cut off - Errm.  iPhones won't be able to talk to each other unless they are both on the same local network.  They also won't wirelessly sync.  The wireless is purely for 'traditional' use, and infringes Zune's functionality not a jot.  It has the same wi-fi functionality that basically every smartphone has had for years.  except it has the new version.

goople - it;s already been confirmed that its 1st party apps only, OSX it may be but they have locked it down apparently.

I think most of people got it wrong about the Apple lock-in. The lock-in resides in the hardware and UI interaction, not on the applications side. On the contrary, it seems meant to be open (look also at what Google and Yahoo promise to add). I believe the iPhone opens a whole new era. Watch very soon for games, business applications, ... available for the iPhone, seamlesly connected to the Internet anywhere, anytime. A whole new ballgame. Magic. Pure magic.

"iPhones won't be able to talk to each other unless they are both on the same local network."

You think one song at a time Zune-to-Zune sharing isn't a local network?

iTunes has had Rendezvous for a long time: anyone on the same wireless network can stream anyone's ENTIRE library at their OWN discretion if the users have Rendezvous enabled. No need to select individual songs and "beam"/"squirt" them.

"They also won't wirelessly sync."

Duh... neither does the Zune. Stop pretending the Zune has features it doesn't have.

"The wireless is purely for 'traditional' use, and infringes Zune's functionality not a jot."

Who'd want to infringe on Zune's functionality? Beaming one song at a time with a 3-play/3-day restriction is not desireable.

I don't get it - why all the comparisons to the Zune? because it plays music? Hell the Creatvie Zen does that. The difference is in the software, iTunes v. ZM. Most telling in the speech was the name change - Apple is finally realizing that the business is in software that powers devices ... I think MS fgured that out 25 years ago.

Anyway I think the iPhone is going to bomb. the cell phone market is not driven by fanboys, but by business. I don't see businesses giving up Blackberrys and Treos for the iPhone. I also do not get the whole "shove everything into a cell phone idea." I like my Blackberry - does everything a portable device is supposed to do. I love my Zune, easy to use, great quality, and the software ... I actually like the business model.

Anyway, good luck apple!

With an iPhone, you will be able to get:

Poor Cingular call quality.

http://www.jdpower.com/util/ratings/results.aspx?study_id=512&vertical=Telecom&v1=West

Poor Cingular customer care.

http://www.jdpower.com/telecom/ratings/wireless/customer_care/index.asp

Poor Cingular billing, and Poor Cingular overall satisfaction.

http://www.jdpower.com/util/ratings/results.aspx?study_id=553&vertical=Telecom&v2=West

Where do I sign up? -lol

Actually, for a long time now Apple's premise has been that you want to control both the software and the hardware. From this idea you get the seamless fit between iTunes and the iPod. From this same idea, five years later, you get the Zune. You probably consider Mossberg a fanboy but for an interesting article on this see http://online.wsj.com/article/SB114729881894749433.html

Agree or disagree with the approach, the change in the corporate name merely represents the fact that Apple is resolved to take it beyond the computer.

Byron Hinson ….

Come on. You reallu mean that a $600 device is comparable to $250. In case you are going to compare Zune to iPhone then you should also compare iPod to iPhone and Nano to iphone since they are both 8GB. The we can safely say that iPod and Nano interface is really crappy in fromnt of iPhon’e interface and so we should all through away the iPods and jump to iPhone.

But as I said that’s really stupid. I like the looks of iPhone and the UI. But without any support for the exchange server and allowing third party to make application for this phone iPhone will forever be in a niche market.

Do you know which OS looks better, has better functionality and has religious following….MAC, and what is its market share????

So at the end of the day iPhone by itself be a success but its no threat to anyone right now as it stands. Ofcourse in future we don’t know how where Apple will take the iPhone.

Rohit

amazin UI, simple and straight forward. downside is the multi touch.....will be slower than a smartphone with keypads.

The zune team must move forward fast, open wifi, add xna games, act as a xbox 360 remote control, release zune phone with truly user friendly interface....

It's also the best thing to ensure zune team remains focused.

@tim

- Oh I looked at the iPhone baby! Having voicemail act like e-mail is interesting, but not to the tune of $500-$600 with Cingular!

- You're right, I have to buy an add-on for the xbox 360's HDDVD - it only has a DVD9 drive. The  Apple TV has neither.

No need to carry a server on your shoulder tim, just do like the rest of the planet and connect it to the internet as a server! :P My point was that it would be so much more interesting to serve files from the WHS to a phone since i won't even need to be near a computer to get music/photos/videos. I can do that right now with my computer....just use remote desktop/gotomypc and my tablet can see my home computer!

@iChris

More plastic than glass? How can you tell the difference on a phone screen? Clear plastic can look exactly like glass to the human eye.

Vista more like OSX? I've been using OSX for over a year and Vista from RC2. I can say that people who say Vista is like OSX have either: 1) haven't used OSX for a long while 2) haven't used Vista for a while 3) seen screenshots on the web and made their conclusion.

Also, I spoke with some of my college friends about that iPhone. They all have phones with capabilities like the iPhone. To them, they hardly use their phones for music, internet, photos or video. For them, they "just want a phone".

Will the iPhone name stay? Look here at NBC..

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16566514/

@Tablet PC

I have been using Macs for more than 18 years. The graphic style of Dashboard is usually called Plastic. Buttons have light gradient on the top and are bit darker on the bottom, etc.

Well, Vista is not like OS X :P Vista is not that great, but they did copy the GUI of some stuff like Spotlight, iPhoto, Mail, Calendar. There is a David Pogue video on the net.

They both steal, that's how it is... ;-)

http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/macosx_leopard_preview.asp

To those wondering how Microsoft will respond to the iPhone.. they already have!

Check out the upcoming ZunePhone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRLRjKCGHek

Funny thing is... it's just as clunky as MS would do it :)

Microsoft and the Zune for pwned!

http://money.cnn.com/2006/03/03/technology/rimm_ntp/index.htm

Just want to take a break from this iCrap and ask when will we see our first significant update for Zune.  I hope the Zune programmers are hunkered down in Redmond and not all of them at CES.

Okay.

So.

I'm gonna get it.  Thats how much i like it.  I think the reason they got it right this time, is because they really did reinvent.  Every little touch is an innovation.  The iPhone i mean - iTV will do miserably.  

I don't see Zune reinventing itself - standing apart from the competition.  And i know what you're thinking, not nessecarily Cesar, but the whole of MS, "we have more features, and do more", but see its not about that.  It's about doing it...first.  That's why iPod was and is King.  It's become a standard.  You can't deny Zune gets inspiration from Zune.  That's also why iPhone will be King.  They're doing it first - if you do it first, you become a standard.  

I think you need more innovation.

If thats how you spell it, of course

vidi vini vicci

I see iFanboys love Microsoft websites.

Clearly Apple has thought about how these things are going to get stolen by the thousands. They made it too high end. Better tie your iPhone to your body.

I have to agree that the iPhone is dead in the water because of the screen getting scratched and the unreplaceable battery. It's these two things that have caused iPod sales to plummet.

"iPod sales to plumment"??  lolz!  where did you hear that one?

"iPod sales to plummet."

You wish they did! They've gone up and continue to do so. Zune on the other hand are already down from their first month.

"I see iFanboys love Microsoft websites."

I see that the people who BUILD Zune love to talk about Apple, the iPod, and the iPhone.

I thought it was way more interesting that Apple dropped the 'computer' part of their name. It seems to me that this is a public admission to where their money is coming from and that its becoming a gaget company. So far the most successful computer company has become successful via business, selling the majority of businesses to deploy their products. Somthing that Apple hasn't been successful at and now their dropping computer from their name.

Cesar wants ifanboy comments kept to a minimum.  But, Cesar, even the hardcore Zune guys like myself are going to end up as ifanboys if Apple manages to keep churning out products like the iPhone.  Microsoft has some really interesting technologies and innovations on their hands like Photosynth but sadly the Zune is a no frills device.  It has Wi-fi...that's it. The list of things that it's missing continues to grow as Apple continues to invent (and patent) new features.  

When am I going to be able to stop saying: "I wish Microsoft had thought of that." It seems that the leadership at Apple is just more concerned with pleasing and exciting users than the Zune team.  Apparently, Apple doesn't even need focus groups to realize that people like extras and interesting features on their devices.  I have long been a big critic of the ipod, but the iphone blows everything out of the water.  Robbie Bach talked about Microsoft's task of keeping up with Apple and how it was important....uhhh..bad start.  MS blows CES and Apple is the talk of the town with a groundbreaking product.  Microsoft needs to do something to get us excited, or the Zune is probably not going to last very long.  

Then, I wonder about why the zune team is so small and why the launch was so small.  One device, one HD size, 3 colors.  I don't get it. Are they really serious about this thing?  I don't think so.  The XBOX projects were SERIOUS.  The Zune...not so much.  And, I guess Windows Mobile will die a slow death when Apple rolls out 4 or 5 different models of the iphone on different carriers while Microsoft begins to think about entering the media-centric smartphone market.  Late to the game as always.  It's a shame...they have the tech, just not the right leadership or focus I assume.

"So far the most successful computer company has become successful via business, selling the majority of businesses to deploy their products."

Who Dell? Teake a look at market value? Apple is crushing Dell. Volumes doesn't equal success.

All the comments I'm reading is just nick-picking at specs (EDGE, Cingular, battery life, etc.). All can be changed with future updates (I mention that because we Zune users always gloat about future Zunes to have wifi sync, podcasts and movies).

The BOTTOM LINE is: when was MS ever able to launch a product with so my excitement?? Windows 95?? The fact is, Apple creates things that even a MS fanboy like myself would lust after. I'm returning my Zune before my 30-day return policy expires. In comparison (and for the same price), the ipod is a much better value. The itunes store is years ahead of ZM. And later on, when the fullscreen ipod comes out, all my itunes content will transfer seamlessly.

I hate to say it, but ZM is a sinking ship. Why invest in purchases that only work in an inferior product.

I'm so sad.

i thought the iPhone is "revolutionary." makes you go "hmmmm."

http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/11/iphone-and-lg-ke850-separated-at-birth/

I've never seen the LG phone until now. Funny, being out before the iPhone, no one has even heard of it. Guess LG needs to work on their marketing...

Many differences: too many buttons. No proximity sensor, no accelerometer, no wifi (google maps, yahoo push-IMAP), no Safari browser, no iTunes, etc.

The Apple phone is revolutionary because not only of it's design, but of the software and user-friendliness. Something no other company can emulate. The MS team really needs to get something great out their, the Zune is already so last year (and it's only been out 2 months!)

Moe is right, I'm starting to doubt if Zune will ever catch up to Apple. I bought a few songs from the Marketplace already, but am starting to be hesitant in buying anymore. I get the feeling that I will probably switch to an ipod and don't want to spend anymore on Zune. So for now, I'll only be ripping CDs onto my Zune.

It's sad to see Apple create something so elegant that generates oohs and ahhs from even us Zune users. And Microsoft essentially just rebadging a Toshiba Gigabeat. I really have little confidence that MS can build anything innovative on their own. I think the xbox 360 is very good, but the Zune already looks like it hasn't been updated in years. People like shiny things. If you see the ipod and the Zune in the display case, which one looks more attractive? I bought the Zune because I'm just begging for it to be successful. With the iphone, I can see that the general direction of both companies cannot be farther apart.

Wow. I'm a Microsoft fan (I work for a Microsoft Partner). I've been in love with my Windows Mobile 5 phone for a year, but this thing blows it away. Hopefully, Apple's innovation will spawn a whole host of new and exciting products from many different companies.

That interface... Wow!

- I think the success of the iPhone will depend largely on how easy it is to enter text, e.g. can it be used one-handed? If I have to hold it in one hand while I tap my fingers, how is it any better than a PDA w/o a stylus? I'm guessing Sidekick will still be easier to use if you want to do a lot of email/im'ing/browsing.

- In the US, with easy accessibility to a PC, I don't see why people would browse the internet/email/im using the iPhone on-the-go on a mass scale. And if they don't use data much, why would they shell out bucks for a data plan? When they are at home, why would they use a small 3.5 inch screen with awkward data entry when there's a PC/laptop handy?

- With just 8GB storage, you would still need to have a 30GB iPod or other PMP around, so it's not really replacing a PMP in the near future.

Moe:

Agreed. I hadn't heard of the LG either. Haven't found many specs on it other than it's a touch screen that looks an awful lot like what Apple announced this week.  I did find some pics showing off the LG's ability to orient itself based on how it's held. I wonder if Apple is rebranding the LG phone.  

Well, at second glance, it looks like there's a button to toggle orientation, but I still think they look a lot alike.

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/cellphones/lg-ke850-sports-a-touchscreen-interface-222110.php

HD: in the US there IS an easily accessibility to a PC, but I hate carrying around my 8 lb. Dell laptop around all the time. And I would say 80% of my laptop (on the road) is for wifi access (email, maps, surfing), NOT serious work such as Excel, Word, etc. Wouldn't it be nice to just be in a hotspot and whip out the iPhone to check weather, stocks, email. And that google satellite/map is just jawdropping! The music and video is a plus, not real necessary in my life, but it's definitely nice to have if needed (like when my plane is delayed and I have a few hours to kill). I think 4gb is plenty. Remember, these are not targeted to the youth, but for business people on the go.

"I wonder if Apple is rebranding the LG phone."

Apple isn't Microsoft.

Damn! I'm a big time Apple Hater. But this iphone blew me away. I resisted the ipod, but when my Verizon contract expires this summer, I'm gonna have to make a tough choice. Isn't Microsoft coming out with a phone too?? Hopefully by summer!!

Don't bet on it. According to an article:

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/101497/ces-2007-microsoft-naysayer-for-apple-ipod-phone.html

Speaking with analysts at the Consumer Electronics Show (CES) in Las Vegas, Robbie Bach, Microsoft's president of its entertainment and devices division, said of Apple's fabled "iPhone": "If it's great as a music player, then it's just another iPod trying to be a phone." He noted that Microsoft considered integrating cell phone capability into the Zune but decided against it.

"It's probably on the table of things for us to look at, but not the number one thing we are focused on," Mr. Bach said of the possibility of a "ZunePhone."

Zune phone would be dumb. I think the idea of mp3/cellphone is dumb. I like to keep them separate.

That article was posted BEFORE the iPhone announcement. Considering all the fanfare these last 48 hours, Mr. Bach may want to reconsider their plans. They're trying to keep up with Apple, correct? Maybe MS can rebrand the LG phone. LOL!!

"Considering all the fanfare these last 48 hours, Mr. Bach may want to reconsider their plans."

But this would just show how much of a clusterfck Microsoft's media plans are. It's one thing to screw over Creative, iRiver, Samsung... the market is small and PFS was a MASSIVE failure... but how does the Zune team explain to Microsoft Corporate, "We want to take the guts from Windows Mobile and attack one of your newly developing core business by competing against some of our best partners who are making billions off of cellphones... oh and we'll need about 2,000 more staff people to deal with this, please?

Moving beyond iPhone, its the last day of CES2007 and not one near term announcement surrounding Zune.  How can you go to a trade show and not be able to demonstrate forward movement in your product?  At least that would lend creedance to your promise of future upgrades...build confidence in your base.  Even if you are keeping major enhancements secret, there is no harm to say for ex. we've partnered with so-and-so, AudioBooks will be available in May.  That would demonstrate your eagerness to evolve.  I guess what I am saying, you lost an opportunity by being quiet at CES.

no question the iphone looks killer - and I'm certain all the apple-fans will rave about how it kills zune from a design and i/o perspective.  but lets get it straight, it's taken apple 2-3 years to create that bad boy - zune was conceived over beer and taken to market in about 3 days... I love my zune cesar, but I hope you pass on all the comments above to J Allard - ZUNE NEEDS TO BE SET FREE - support for AVI, MPG, WMA, OGG, MP3, DIVX, WMA and WMV - make it the most compatable device in the world and it will find a niche - a big niche.  keep it locked away like a canary in a cage and it will die.  

www.zunegroove.com

"zune was conceived over beer and taken to market in about 3 days... "

It shows. Your point?

But, of course, Cesar, Robbie Bach, Allard, Gates, and everyone else related to Microsof tor Zune will claim it was a year of "intense" R&D and market studies.

Interesting article pointing to a flaw in the sharing. If you and I both have a Zune pass (and the Zune knows it), why should our squirted songs have DRM (3x/3days)? Makes no sense. Why would I buy it if I'm already subscribing??

http://www.fool.com/investing/value/2007/01/10/microsofts-new-paperweight.aspx

Great article. The best part was the last paragraph:

There's a side of me, as a Microsoft shareholder, that hopes Microsoft sticks a fork in the Zune right now and admits that it's done. Stop wasting money on this initiative. You're late to the game, and you brought out a nice device with some good, new features, but you blew it on the details. Meanwhile, Apple has jumped another two years ahead with its latest offering. Admit you're beaten, and let Allard and Co. concentrate on improving the Xbox 360, fast. You've got better odds in the race against Sony's (NYSE: SNE) PlayStation, and the rewards for second place in the video game space are a lot better than those for whatever-ith place in music players.

Kahlid..I disagree completely.  A portable device is needed to complete the ecosystem for connected entertainment to be a reality.  Consumption of content goes way beyond just games.  Nobody said Microsoft wouldn't go throw growing pains.  I think the Zune team has thick enough skin to see beyond all this.  Execute your vision and see where you can incorporate user feedback.  And I am a shareholder too.

Ouch, guys.

Looks like MS either needs to play catch up FAST or put the Closed sign in the window of the Zune Marketplace.

As a Marketplace Zune Pass subscriber, you can just download the same beamed track for "free."  It'll show up in your Inbox.  I do agree having an "Auto License" download for Zune Pass would be smart.  But I wouldn't expect it to work until you dock it.  Add that to the "future feature" list.

Since beaming is not very popular (not enough Zunes!), I'd put that feature lower on the list, though.

# January 11, 2007

tim

"I see that the people who BUILD Zune love to talk about Apple, the iPod, and the iPhone."

----------------

At least we do it on our OWN fan websites...

Those thinking Zune is going down the drain should stop dreaming....MS will only imrpove the product. Once MS put stake in a market they dont back down easy. Zune market share can only grow with time and improve their product cutting into iPod market share.

Have Steve Jobs speech was spent discussing what MS is doing and not doing. This why I dislike Apple. People who try and get leverage by bashing others. Steve Jobs, why the MS grudge?

oops....I meant, "half Steve Jobs speech..."

Hey Franco, you're dreaming, the Zune can't even cut into the market share of Samsung, let alone iPod. Yes, true, MS is in it for the long haul. Kind of like Creative. Their Zen's aren't selling well but their not going to abandon it. MS has tons of money. I think if after 5 years of upgrades, the Zune still does not catch on, they'll kill it like the DJ Ditty.

If you take an honest look at Apple hardware vs. MS hardware, Apple is the clear winner.

I can't believe Zune still can't even do audiobooks or podcasts. I was hoping at CES that they would at least say they PLAN to incorporate it, but they only said games in 18 months. Do you have any idea where Apple will be in 18 months?? Take a good look at the iphone, that is the future ipod. And that is what the Zune is up against!!

All us Zune believers are facing a harsh reality.

J Allard fired up his team by showing a quote from Steve Jobs about MS not having any taste in design. "Those are fighting words." said Allard.

When the Zune came out, I thought, "hey, not bad. very decent. Good UI." But now compared to the iPhone, I've come to the humble conclusion that MS just ain't got it.

I mean.. WOW! The iPhone is just amazing. The UI is incredible. Totally blew me away. Did you see the keynote? Someone commented that the people where just sitting at the edge of their seats leaning forward. It was that magical. Never in a million years will MS demand that kind of passion!

""I see that the people who BUILD Zune love to talk about Apple, the iPod, and the iPhone."

At least we do it on our OWN fan websites..."

As a Zune owner, I think it's important to talk about Apple. I mean, isn't that where the Zune teams gets all its ideas from? That's the competition, and that's the leader. We must keep our focus on them or else we'll be toast. Kind of like how GM/Ford is trailing Toyota/Honda.

My ipod buddies ask me why I picked a Zune and I tell them of all the cool things it can do, like bigger screen, better UI, wifi, etc. But I'm fighting a losing battle. The iPhone just smashed the Zune in all aspects. I actually think the $499 price is actually cheap considering all that you're getting: wifi, BT, true Safari browsing, maps, etc. It's like a mini laptop minus the apps.

Please MS, give me something new to brag about!!

Jobs keynote was AMAZING!!!!!!!!!

Lets keep in mind that the japanese have had phones like this for years.  It hasn't remade the landscape for mp3 players.  Mega gadgets that cost 600 bucks don't make everything else obsolete as much as apple wants it to be that way.

plus it's funny that they don't even own the name iphone.

Hey Krptman40k, which japanese are you talking about, Sony? Samsung? No one has a wifi phone with photo, maps, browser and touchscreen. Please show us. Obviously you can't. Please come back with an educated response.

I don't like Apple but I have to admit, this one is the best by a mile! Nothing in the Windows world even comes close.

Yo Cesar, any official comment from the Zune camp?? I'm tired of reading amateurish comments from fanboys. I want to know what YOU are thinking!!

i think the Cingular exclusive thing is sweet. This will boost cingular customers and finally people will realize that Cingular is the best network

Well, it is a nice looking phone but I gotta say the touch screen experience is going to be terrible.

 I speak from knowing this because I have had a UMPC for the last year. The only time I am productive is when I plug in an external keyboard.  

Maybe these will be available for the iPhone too. Touchscreen is like using an ATM machine - maybe ok for phone but not entering text for any length of time.  

MS you need to stop trying to merely catch up but think ahead and raise the bar and set new standards. Those new players from iRiver are really beautiful for example...

I am still happy with my Zune and realize it is your first attempt.  Do something to make us Zune owners proud again.  Surprise us and I don't mean like saying we are getting games in 18 months!  

Show us something in the next 30 days!

Now Zune people stop by and chaeck out our great Zune cases! www.zuneone.net

I'm liking the iphone and what it has to offer: a true mp3 phone and wi-fi.  But i don't feel the phone is for me.  With a price of over 600 plus 2 years locked to a service, the phone really looses its luster.

 My true wish of an iphone was that the phone was going to be sold like an electronic device and not a cell phone.  Which meant it would unlocked and with out a service plan.  

Let's be honest, if anyone agrees to year or 2 of service the cell companies are not going to deny you access as long as your phone can work their frequency.  (something for the zune to keep in mind)

if a zune phone is in the works here are some tips:

1- sell an unlocked version, even if it cost more you create options

2- direct link with marketplace, that feature is a big sore on the current zune

4- create different models at different price points, sporting different features.

<a href="http://www.ipod-zune-psp.com">convert dvd to zune, dvd to zune converter</a>-- ipod zune psp video converter software released

you guys need to move faster. everything is moving like a washington speed. 20mph.  need to get to Los Angeles speed to beat Apple.

Just finished reading most of the post and I am surprise; I expected the opposite response coming from a MS (Zune) site. Wish I could say the same reading some Apple fan sites.  

Apple could have easily release the iPhone half baked (Zune?) a year ago, but instead they worked on it (2.5 years) until they (Jobs) felt it's ready for prime time and it would get such overwhelmingly positive reaction. I am not big on phones, don't know what the hell is EDGE or 3G, push etc, but I do know I want one now. After watching that keynote, my iPod now seems dated.

Everything you need to know:

http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/01/11/the-ultimate-iphone-frequently-asked-questions/

Check out (combine the URL):

http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/11/

iphone-and-lg-ke850-separated-at-birth/

Cesar - I would expect you answer some questions here raised by other member here on this site ... but instead all i hear is that you have a casino named after you ... crap!! You need to focus on Zune and how to improve it ... Be little serious about trying to promote Zune than talk about stuff that is not related at all ... especially considering that this blog is by Microsoft insider who works on zune project ... the thought of you promoting Zune scares the crap outta me ... show us what you can do instead of just letting us talk and you sit and have coffee ... maybe you should let someone who can actively participate take care of this blog site ...

I love my zune but it's limited and would expect some insight into what's coming ... atleast try to pretend you are interested in zune's success ...

Forget the iPhone. Sansa Connect is Zune's big new rival! It will launch with most of the features I want in a Zune and iPod.

Here's the story:

http://www.gizmocafe.com/blogs/gizmo_cafe_blog/archive/2007/01/10/102214.aspx

Some people say the Zune was rushed....i say it is better to put a toe in the water so you can know how the gme works and improve your product. all the same Clearly Zune needs a rethink...when it comes to things like mp3's that different from software...you NEED to be flashy. no one cares about functions....its all flash and style. the more stylish and cool the better it will sell. remember that nest time MS. i mean...look how Apple made white earphones a fashion statement. That was genius!

Wow! I'm loving all the conversation about this in my last post . I'm back from CES now and I've had

I believe the Zune was rushed, but it had to come out at the right time, before the holidays. Imagine if the Zune came out NOW, during Macworld. It would be the laughingstock of all of CES! Just reading the comments, I sense a lot of us Zuners are feeling a bit inadequate.

Ted, it's true.. apparently the Zune came out too.. zune? :)

http://www.tuaw.com/2007/01/11/found-video-iphone-spanks-microsoft/

Zune gets one more month, then I'm bricking it to invoke my replacement guarantee.  Then, I'm getting an iPod!

Steve Jobs is a self-promoting dweeb that lives off of others innovations (Xerox Parc) and captial investments (Record companies catalogs Cingular/AT&T networks) and puts a wrapper around the same old stuff.

This worked a couple of times.

MS managed to manipulate enough big PC manufacturers to jam a tragically flawed, nearly inoperable operating system down the world's throat.

This worked once.

Then they started pouring money on anything that would put them in the middle of every transaction in the world and discovered no one wants them there - or anywhere for that matter.

A pariah corporation needs to work in the shadows since, by definition, consumers will avoid them like the diseased monstrosity it is.

Interesting that so many are declaring the iPhone the best thing since sliced bread after seeing it presented by the master of the reality distortion field.  I have used Apple products for many years, and I can't remember a product that worked anywhere near as well as demonstrated by Mr. Jobs during a keynote.  When the iPhone was shown, I thought Steve was holding up a Dell Axim x50/51 with less rounded corners.  I think many will be thrilled when they first purchase the iPhone because it is perceived as cool, sexy etc.  After using it for awhile, the thrill may be replaced with disappointment and frustration.  Typing anything over a sentence or two with a virtual keyboard is frustrating on any device.  The scrolling with the fingers looks cool, but bring your screen cleaner with you, you will need it.  We don't know the details about just how full the version of OSX is, perhaps it is just a subset of the real thing.  As far as Safari goes, it is a rarity when the latest verison of Safari running on a late model desktop can render every page I visit in an individual surfing session.  I am sure the screen is gorgeous, so is the screen on the PSP.

The iPhone may indeed be the best thing to hit the smartphone market in a long time, but judge the performance and practicality of the features you are drooling over after using it, not after seeing one demo from the quintessential salesman.

The music interface on the iPhone is amazingly cool.  That said, I'm really more interested in seeing how cellphone makers react to the "Jesusphone".

For instances, check out Nokia's concept videos on the future of cellphones.  Pretty cool ideas present there. Kinda Minority Report-like, minus the random hand waving.

(http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/cellphones/nokia-design-concept-videos-show-future-of-cellphoning-229739.php)

Anyway, I think it was rumoured that Google was going to make a cellphone at some stage. That is a product I would be interested in seeing.