Even though non-DRMed songs are not automatically wrapped in DRM, they still will expire when shared? Isnt that still technically in some form a type of DRM?

Hey, ok, good to hear about that :) So you say, if I own unprotected music as mp3 or so and share them over WiFi with other Zune users, there will be no restriction and NO 3 times/3 days limit?! The 3 days/3 times limit is only for "protected" DRM shit..?! I hope so! :-P But you should increase the limit to 7 days/21 times playback..! In order that you can hear them at least one week and 3 times a day, before your "must" buy it.. For my other comments on DRM, see here: http://www.zuneinsider.com/2006/09/answers_to_some.html#comment-22616852 best regards, PSchuetz

Fair enough Caesar...

What´s up with those "blocked" media files copied from Zune to another device, f.e. my PC ? What about DRM free songs copied from my PC to Zune ? Are they also blocked after three days/ three times ?

So remind me again why this is good? So you don't change the file, but you still restrict any songs played after 3 times or 3 days on the device? It's not file-based DRM, it's device-based DRM... but it's still DRM. Question: What happens if I take that file off the zune and onto my computer? Does it become unrestricted?

Also, what happens if, after those 3 days / 3 plays, I want to send it to another Zune device? Can I? If so, doesn't that negate the DRM? I can send it to another Zune, they can send it back, and I'll have another 3 days / 3 plays. If you can't send it, then it's DRM, and for content licensed under a non-DRM license (i.e. Creative Commons), that makes it illegal. Too much time in the labs and in the boardroom. Not enough time with the people.

nice to see that bit clarified. I'm sure more savvy users will find a way around this, so it does'nt worry me that much.

************************************************************ ************************************************************ I agree with Andrew. You are blowing smoke on this issue. Big deal, it's not software enforced restrictions, it's deviced based restrictions. There is no difference between them. Both are DRM. It's restricted rights that are are indepenently managed by the device or software. Geeze, Microsoft is blowing it on this issue. It totally destroys the grass-roots marketing of independently produced work. Boo on you Microsoft! ************************************************************ ************************************************************

Actually, I think it's important that they clarify this so that everyone understands they are not applying DRM to the actual song itself...thus they don't infringe on any Creative Commons licences. That could have gotten very messy. -Charlie

Cesar, can you clarify DRM use on WMA files? Is Microsoft going to allow it's own format on it's own player? Or? With other words: can I go URGE?

Hello, I think the point Caesar was trying to make was that your original song will remain DRM free. The one on your computer or on your Zune device will not have DRM applied to them. So in case you have two computer say A and B. And you transfer DRM free song from computer A to Zune and from Zune to computer B, the song will not have any DRM attached to it. Its only when you transfer from Zune to Zune that 3 day 3 time rule kicks in. In case any one is angry at this blame the music industry. Some people though that once the song is on Zune it will get protected by DRM (outside Zune to Zune environment). Correct me if I am wrong. Rohit

Guys, they must drm-wrap everything. otherwise people will just get un-drmed songs or stripped drm songs, and share those illegally through the device. that is why they must have (zune) drm on all songs for 3days/3plays. ex. Let's say I just downloaded a song form itunes. I use fairplay and take that drm off. Now I have a brand new song and can send it to all my friends for free. So now my 5 friends didn't pay for that song and the company loses 5 dollars. now my 5 friends share with 5 people. $25 lost. etc. etc.

Does Zune play nice with the standard 'PlaysForSure' DRM that is out there with Napster, Yahoo Music, etc? Also, am I right in assuming that the files xfered wirelessly will not be able to be accessed outside of Zune? (maybe stored in a locked portion of memory?)

Interesting. Still, I fail to see the functional difference between the two DRM schemes. The bottom line is that both are going to absolutely suck for the independent musician who likes to send music to his friends. It's a shame, too, because if anything, sites like YouTube have shown that there is a huge audience for this type of user-created content. In all fairness to MS though, I think a bulk of the blame lies with with Big Content, who has this almost pathological obsession with piracy.

"... As a company, we want to empower consumers to share music experiences, but recognize the need to place limits on the transfer of music files so that consumers are encouraged to try and buy music. ..." LOL! And whose "need to place limits" would that be? Mine as a consumer? Microsoft's? The music industry's? As a (semi-) educated consumer I can ensure you that I have no such need whatsoever - I can very well decide on my own when, where, how and why I purchase music. I also appreciate that you seem to have caught quite a bit heat from the Zune PR/marketing folk for having the gut to name the child by its name, but no matter how you call it, one simple fact remains: "Microsoft intends to patronize me as a consumer by imposing artificial limits on a feature of its product." And it also doesn't really matter how you describe it ... it's a limit that benefits Microsoft and the music industry but surely not me, the consumer. Regardless of how you paint it, white with black dots, purple or even ... (*shudder*) ... brown, a cow is a cow, is a cow. Btw, I do take (minor) offense to "being sold for stupid" when someone tells me that "feature A" is for my benefit when all it really does is restrict my freedom to use said product. Tell your marketing dude(s)/dudette(s) Frank said "Hi" and that he recommends they speak with "real consumers" (outside of focus groups) every now and then, so that they don't lose touch with reality altogether. And yes, in this case Frank does speak from personal experience. Cheers from the ivory tower ... =)

That seems quite a bizzare option. Even less logical than wrapping it in DRM (although, less evil) I really hope you're relaying to the powers that be that the entire community find the situation ridiculous. Can I still send a file after it has 'expired'? Can't that song be just sent back to me? If I can't resend the file, how is this 'Viral' sharing, the way a virus works is to infect as many people as it can. If the common cold stopped being infectious after you sneezed 3 times, it wouldn't spread very far. Is that file still hanging around on my device somewhere? Can't I now go home, pull the file off, and then put it back on? Am I going to have my hard drive filled up with media I can't play? I'm really disappointed that Microsoft have come out with such a kick arse feature and then completely ruined it.

I wonder if it would be possible to "wrap" user created songs in a "non-drm" drm, that would allow it to be virally shared indefinately.... that way any free songs available on zune marketplace( community section ) would be in the special "sharing-drm" and wouldn't follow the 3days/3plays format. That way people could still share their user made recordings ( as long as they posted them on zune marketplace then downloaded to their player from zune marketplace ) They would be able to share with their friends, and their friends would be able to share with their friends. ( it would be a truly viral song/video )

If the files don't have DRM, and the limit is only on the device, would it be possible to transfer the song of the player to your pc and thus keep it forever? If it does nothing to the file this should be possible shouldn't it?

I love the idea of the Zunes ability to share music, its implementation though seems more in favour of the record industry (*cough* no surprises there - hate the record industry not Microsoft!) rather than the end-user. My 360 wont play DRM protected songs, I can’t share my DRM songs with anyone, and the Zune seems to be on the restrictive side too :( Where’s this "connected entertainment" we've been promised! I want to be able to share my music, and if my friend likes it, they can simply download and pay for a license themselves. I don’t want to keep sending them song every 3 days! (especially if the song isn't DRM, shouldn't they just be able to keep it and forget about the 3 day limit!) I guess the Zune team are a little paranoid that those illegal music downloader’s among us will infect everyone’s Zune with there "dirty" downloaded content? Won’t this happen anyway when someone works out a hack? Honestly there’s more users willing to pay for music then go the illegal route, if only some trust was placed in the consumer...

no because shared files won't be able to be placed on the pc. they will probably only have a play or delete option. no sync.

I hate how the question of independent artists and non-copyrighted works is constantly avoided when talking about the DRM. I produce a track, which is my own original work. I see someone else chillin' with a Zune. I offer them my work for free, and they can listen to it 3 times or 3 days... Then it's locked and they have to purchase it. But wait, oh that's right, I'm not in CSS or Hot Chip or Spank Rock, it's not available on the store! What the hell are they supposed to do?

"... I'm not in CSS or Hot Chip or Spank Rock, it's not available on the store! What the hell are they supposed to do? ..." Uhm, I thought that was rather obvious by now. Buy music from where Microsoft and the music industry want you and everyone else to buy music from - their online store/the established record labels (same thing applies to the "other" big online music store as well, of course) Just to spell it out as literally as possible: You as an independent musician who tries to distribute his/her music through independent channels are the enemy because you want to eliminate the middle-man (Microsoft, the record labels, whoever else makes a quick buck through the distribution of music). Somewhat of a harsh reality but that's the way this particular cookie crumbles. =(

I know what you mean, but it was a rhetorical question. I'd just like to see a Microsoft spokesperson admit to it.

"... I'm not in CSS or Hot Chip or Spank Rock, it's not available on the store! What the hell are they supposed to do? ..." If they like it then they could just download it from your website or rip it from a cd and copy it over. Yes the limit is annoying but did you really think Microsoft would turn the Zune into a free music network... Imagine if the Zune became as big as the Ipod and everyone had them. Most people wouldn't bother buying music, they could just get there friends to send it all to them. Music would just keep getting passed on and on.

Hi, While your update on the DRM is slightly refreshing, I am still majorly confused and concerned. If I am using the Zune as a storage device for MY media am I to understand that no changes at all will be made to the files I store on the device? Can I also be assured that I can pull MY files on and off the Zune without worrying about unwanted DRM being applied or the device changing the files in any way? Also, If I have some unprotected WMA files I made of myself playing guitar and I want to GIVE them to another Zune user for KEEPS, can I authorise the player in some way to not apply restrictions? This whole DRM thing is scary and confusing. I hate to give a knee-jerk response but at first glance my reaction is this: "Keep your filthy hands off MY media"

"... Yes the limit is annoying but did you really think Microsoft would turn the Zune into a free music network... ..." Nice try there but it does nothing to adequately explain this artificially imposed limit ... let's look at a few slightly, yet perfectly logical examples: How many of the books you have borrowed from friends/your local library over the years have self-desctructed after you read them more than once? Out of all the DVDs/tapes you've ever rented, how many ceased to operate after a certain number of viewings? Just how many cars have you rented (w/o unlimited mileage) where the engine would stop running after you've racked up the agreed upon mileage? I know, I know - none of the examples above fit 100%, yet each and every one of them shows one simple fact: An industry doesn't automatically go the way of the doo-doo simply because it doesn't impose artificial limits on the products/services it sells. Microsoft *could* have done the same but chose not to - when faced with the decision of whether to appease the content providers or the consumer, they picked the path of least resistance (not at all surprising, btw) and elected to satisfy the sheer limitless greed (and paranoia) of the music industry and, at the same time, to make a nice buck on the side (through addtl. sales from its own online store). And now everyone is surprised that the consumer gets shafted ... again. Btw Cesar, if your device "manages" my "right" to use "digital" content shared via WLAN, it *is* a form DRM. Whether this "management" is done by attaching code to a file or in the device itself is irrelevant - it is, and always will be, DRM ("Digital Rights Management").

ok, you guys are stoopid. What did indie artists have *before* this? how does this P2P sharing w/ DRM actually *hurt* an artist? sorry cesar, it's still "DRM" because ur still "manage" my "rights" to play the song indifinitely.

Do us all a favor. I'm all for this dialogue, and I'm following it closely. But I've said this before, and I'll say it again: don't knock each other. Thanks

Cesar, I am imagining this is quickly becoming a headache for you, right? :~) For what it's worth, here's my 2 cents: I don't fully understand the DRM/Zune-share thing here, but it doesn't really matter to me. Why? A.) I can't remember the last time I wanted to share a Creative Commons-licensed file anyhow and, more importantly, B.) if you put your CC-licensed music on an iPod, iRiver or iWhatever, you can't share it with ANYONE who uses the same device. Period. But that doesn't seem to be a problem to anyone.... You see, that's one of the big features of Zune: you can do something (sharing) that you can't do on any other device. You can use ANY other device and NOT share, but you can only use Zune and share. If it's the legality of it that concerns you, which I doubt, then what if Zune came with a disclaimer saying not to share CC files. You would hate that even more, right? So, I guess what I don't understand is why people (who may not share that many CC files anyhow) are picking this feature apart, and turning it into something that is negative. (P.S. I don't like DRM any more than anyone else, but if I get a cool feature like sharing and the songs are restricted because of it, then I'll gladly make the sacrafice. I just won't share CC-licensed file... which, like most people, I don't do anyhow.)

All I have to say about this is that I am not willing to pay the propesed $35 extra (Digg.com yesterday had a story that WalMart leaked the price at $284) for wi-fi. That's how I see it happening. MS really needs to suck it up and come in at the same price as the iPod in order to be competitive with the 30GB pod. My two pennies.

Nah, I actually love all the comments. Keep em comin!

you know what damien, I completly agree. This is a positive, not a negative.

I’m still not clear on this DRM thing (maybe this was discussed elsewhere, if so post the links in the comments). Here are my questions: 1) I purchased music from Wal-mart.com and URGE. Will those DRM-restricted songs play on the Zune? If not, will the Zune software provide some alternative (software conversion or free download)? 2) If someone shares a non-DRM-restricted song with my Zune, can I sync that file to my PC and allow it to play forever? 3) If someone shares a DRM-restricted song with me, can I sync it to my PC and play it for 3 day/3 times? Will it even sync from the Zune to PC? Thanks :)

ok Cesar, one difficult topic down, one ( possibly two ) to go. Next topic: Playsforsure and the recent Sansa/Real deal. What happened to playforsure. You have given your partners the impression that you are bailing on the project, and now so are they. Just when I was about to upgrade to one of their devices. I love the idea of one drm standard with a wide variety of devices and stores to pick from. So why the cold shoulder now that you guys are releasing your own device? Couple obvious reasons: 1) Takes away from Zune Marketplace sales. You want everyone to have Zunes and only use Zunes on ZMP ( not cool, very ipodish ) 2) Playsforsure is hacked and you guys know that you won't be able to keep up with the hackers in the they hack/you modify battle. 3) There are technical issues with Playsforsure and horizontal integration, and it just doesn't work as well as a vertically integrated service/device/player. so which reason is it Cesar? also here are some reasons why Playsforsure should be added. 1) As J said, it is about choice, so we should be able to choose whether we want the simple service ( vertically integrated ) or plethora of options ( horizontally integrated). Vertical (ease) for the casual/non-savy and horizontal (options) for the music lovers/tech people. 2) Allows us to use existing service if we want to ( or have to because of family and their non-zune devices ) 3) You helped make Urge, Windows Media Player 11, and Clix work well together, why can't we just substitute the Clix with the Zune and have everything perfect like it already is. ( with Clix ) 4) if the Zune Marketplace truly will be all that and a bag of chips, why not give us the option of being able to use other stores, and come back to you when we realize you are the best store.(e.g. best price ) sorry for the extremly long post, just trying to keep the topics coming. Also, I understand if you are unable to answer, but if you can't answer, please don't give us the marketing lines. =P Just tell us you can't give us an answer.

Will the Zune Have audio recording? I use this feature all the time on my ZVM its a reat little recoreder too for being built inot a Digital Audio Player. Other than that DRM is something that is needed sadly. YOu can't help it really, if you want go download DRM free music from a legal source like Emusic. I am still upset that microsoft decided to build just an adequte player for the first forray. It should be the best player on the market, not just another choice, It should support everyhting OGG FLAC AVI (avi is pretty mainstream anyways), It should have every feature audio recording, 265K color screen, podcast support, everything, that is the way to knock Apple from it's throne to make something better that is well known. I am interested in the Zune but after using a Zen Vision M I know that I want all those features (yes I know it doesn't support OGG or FLAC it is EXTREMELY sad and the worst part is that I dont use OGG or FLAC but a lot of people do) please Ceaser respond to me, will the ZUne at least have an accesory for recording? will it get better? how long do I have to wait for the next Zune designed entirely by microsoft? I wanted the best player on the market...but i am still folllowing the Zune if my ZVM craps out I may use my bestbuy warrenty and get the Zune...maybe if I know it will get better Ceaser will it get better?>

There is no podcast support? I thought there was...I mean no automatic downloading? No subscriptions? how do you expecet ipod users to go from itunes, which anybody that can breath can use, to having to do those basic things by themselves? I can just throw the mp3 file on there but some users might not be able to.

Sort of off topic and long winded rant about the RIAA, DRM and music services. Forgive me for it, please. The logic behind the RIAA's argument towards music is flawed. They can't lose a customer they would not have had in the first place. Losses they report due to sharing are comicly inflated. Despite all the sharing going on the industry continues to report record earnings every year. The truth is, people will go buy a CD if they like the band regardless of being able to get it 'free' in a digital form. CD's they don't buy, in near all cases, are CD's they would never have purchased anyway. The music has always been the advertisement for the band and not the 'true' product. The true product being, getting your butt into a seat at a show, selling you T-shirts, keychains, bumper stickers, hats, posters, CD's and all the other merchandise. If you like a band you'll go buy the CD for the photos, lyrics, quotes and artwork. You'll want to own the CD so you can make compilations to listen to as your mood changes. I make a new compilation CD about every week because I get bored (remember when Sony receintly attempted to prevent me from doing this and failed). Going with a digital player should save me money on blank CDs. That is, unless they restrict me in some way of being able to use my media the way I want. It is nothing new. They made a huge stink about cassettes when they hit the scene years ago. They went to court and claimed cassettes would be the end of the recording industry. They couldn't stop it or control it so they ceased shouting at the rain. Their sales went up. The process was repeated when writeable CDs came out. They failed again. Their sales went up. So now we have this new digital format and the same players as before are all crying foul and shouting yet again at the rain. All the while their sales increase. Nothing has changed since Vinyl and cassette. The consumers habits have all remained the same. The only thing that changes is the product. It has gotten cheaper to make and distribute for the record lables and more expencive for the consumer. What used to be the equivilent of a 20 dollar tour book has been reduced to a single piece of paper with a song list and a front picture. How does all this apply to the Zune? Well its the foundation of an opinion on DRM. I see an attempt by the RIAA, Sony and others to change things drastically. Microsoft seems to want to play ball with them and that is frightening. Where they were not successful in the past to screw the consumer, with the giant Micrsoft on the team they might have a shot at doing it this time. Or at least laying a solid foundation for a future attempt. Don't let the RIAA or MS or anyone else impose their will on music. If they want more CD sales, force them to improve the product. Better bands and fewer flash in the pan artists that get massive promotions in an attempt to force them on us as 'the hot new thing'. Don't tell us in your ad campaign, we'll tell you with our cd purchases who 'the hot new thing is'. Here's a thought, take some of the ad money and dump it into a decent CD insert (and dont increase the price). Subscription music is a good idea because it lets consumers have access to stuff they would never have concidered before. It generates sales. Not being able to share these files is understandable. Purchasing single tracks or full albums from these services is just plain stupidity and anyone who does so should be slapped. They bank on your stupidity in order to make money and it seems like they are attemting to change the business model in a way that will force you to do it this way forever. The best way the rabid music consumer can enjoy music is the combination of a subscription plan and the use of a good music club (Like Yourmusic or BMG) to purchase CD's of the stuff that really turns them on. You can buy CD's for 4 to 6 bucks per CD at the most if you belong to a club. It is far less expencive than paying 99 cents a song. Forgive me my long winded rant, which I am sure is full of spelling and grammer mistakes. The whole topic just gets under my skin. The powers that be are always trying to take advantage of the consumers instead of trying to find ways to make better products. F them.

Good rant Rhett. =) *I didn't see any grammatical or spelling mistakes. Thanks for opening our eyes to the stupidity of DRMs forced upon us by Music Companies. Really thought provoking. also @ cary. Yeah I was really hoping Zune would have audio recording and podcast support. There is hope for podcast support. (should be a simple firmware/software upgrade.) As for audio recording. I would use this so much in school/college! I really hope a good ( non-clunky ) mic attachment comes out for the zune. ( 60gb ZVM is looking really good now with all their features ) hopefully Cesar answers more of our questions soon. Come on Cesar, it has been like 6 hours, what are you doing? working? =P

I understand the DRM issue. It sucks. We all get it. However I don’t know if the Zune forum is the right place to discuss this. DRM is imposed by the music industry and we need to take up issue with them. The Zune strategy has to include DRM. They don’t have a choice. So what MS had to come up with is a way to be profitable with Zune in the restricted DRM environment. Given the constraints I think they have done a good job. I agree with the theory that people will buy CD if they like music. That’s why I like subscription service. The amount I pay for a subscription service is something which I see as a fee to try out music. Or listen to music which has short life. I try music using through subscription and then buy CD. In such a situation it would have been great to get music through Zune WiFi and keep it forever but as I said there are restrictions imposed by the music industry (not Zune). But three times or three days does allow me to find out if the music is worth it or not. And if I have a subscription the of course I can listen to it forever and then buy a CD. I don’t think the music studios are going to change their position any time soon. But till then Zune is as good as it get (at least for me).

Oh yeah that reminds me of an earlier question I don't think was ever answered. If we are on a zune pass ( subscription ) and they share music with us, can we keep it longer than the 3 days 3 plays? Wouldn't it autmatically sign it off next time we synced with a pc so we wouldn't have to go physically download it again???

Simple YES/NO question. If a friend shares a song with me (zune-->Zune) and I transfer that song to my PC what is the DRM limitation?

Simple YES/NO question. If a friend shares a song with me (zune-->Zune) and I transfer that song to my PC what is the DRM limitation?

^^ to answer that question. I am not sure but I don't think you can transfer the song to a computer. (only delete or purchase song through store, but never transfer to pc memory). obviously MS isn't stupid. they aren't going to let you keep a song by taking it off your player and putting it on a computer. However, as I said, I am sure you can purchase the song ( or if it is free, just autodownload it ) and since the download was already done, you wouldn't have to wait for it to download ( because it would already be on device ).

If (and indeed when) the iPods get wireless sharing, I think you will see it work much like the Bonjour network sharing in iTunes - you will be able to stream music from an iPod, but not copy it. I know that Microsoft OR "Big Content" are not going to win this. There is too much force behind people sharing their stuff unrestricted. $10 says that the sharing restriction is hacked within days of Zune being released, or at least a method of extracting the content of the Zune onto a PC. Software will pop up that will do this automatically, and "Big Content" will be back at square one. Life always finds a way. The best thing to do is to work with the consumers to appease them so they don't WANT to break your system. Giving people enough rope so that they don't notice the tether is the only way they'll be complacent enough to not fight against it. I think the success of the iTunes store is that MOST people don't really notice the restrictions until they try to do something they shouldn't, like share it on limewire. (I realize this isn't entirely true - there are some legal uses that iTunes doesn't permit. My point is that enough people aren't encumbered by the restrictions to constitute critical mass.) Work against people, and forget about security or any actual restrictions - there's a lot of smart people out there who DON'T work for you, and with the internet, those smart people can communicate. You can kiss any security system goodbye. After hearing a good song for three days, and it all of a sudden doesn't work? You can bet every high school teenager, punk rocker, commuter and personal trainer will be clamouring for a solution that doesn't include spending money. And for those wondering about non-DRM legal content, you only have to look one place for a metric crapload of this stuff - Podcasts. Combine this with YouTube, Google Video and any of the other social networking, user-contributed media sites, and in a couple years you will have more content in the public domain than in all of the music publisher's catalogues. THAT'S exciting stuff, and something I don't see Microsoft recognizing with the already out-of-date Zune.

can't believe no one has pointed out this yet: http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=32565488&postID=115871852375639941 zune will be $249!!

Let's be clear - the wireless file sharing is an amazing step forward. Apple doesn't have it. Creative doesn't have it. Nobody else has it. So, it's restrictive. So what? It's more than you can do with an iPod. I'm sure that this is only the first implementation. Others will follow. MS will re-evaluate. The way it works right now is hardly likley to be written in stone. Anyway, I predict zune users who share wirelessly will be regular friends and will see each other frequently to renew the files they like best. It *is* a step forward - not as big a one as some people might like. But it's forwards nevertheless. Robin - http://zunearmy.com

Rohit, ---------- I understand the DRM issue. It sucks. We all get it. However I don’t know if the Zune forum is the right place to discuss this. ---------- This is most defiantely a good place to discuss this and directly related to Zune and Microsofts business model they have planned for it. Granted, I can be a gas bag who jabbers on and on and on and on and... ---------- DRM is imposed by the music industry and we need to take up issue with them. ---------- This is not accurate. Well, partially not accurate. We should difinately take up issue with the RIAA. Related to the Zune, though, the RIAA has no power to dictate to Microsoft what kind of tiny hard drive they can make or if they include software that plays media files on that tiny hard drive. They have no authority to impose DRM on anything. This is Microsofts choice. The DRM in question here is related to The Zune Marketplace. Microsoft wants to keep you at their store and using only their device. Thats what it boils down to. Understandable. The problem is that the DRM spills out onto stuff that is not related to their store. The other issue is the business Model. This isn't just Microsoft making a new player and joining the market. I'm not going to re-write my whole previous post to explain it but there is an attempt going on to do away with the CD product altogether (Oh how the RIAA would love that). If consumers are not aware of it they will wake up one day and find that the product is gone completely. It already has been stripped down to a bare minimum over the years. Most good bands still include a somewhat decent insert, though. Vinyl was the best version of the product the industry has given us. I still buy them from the newer bands that make them. lots of bands still do limited pressings. Since CDs the product has gotten worse and worse. Soon, there will be no product at all. Just ones and zeros that make sound, but only on a specific player related to where you purchased your ones and zeros. Is that really what we want? Is that progress? Shouldnt we make some noise about it? If we make enough noise maybe Microsoft will hear us and be the first to combine a subscription service with a CD club. Now THAT I would cheer about! Forget the pay for downloads. Pay for a subscription service and include the tangible product (at club prices) all in one store. Maybe even improve that product -gasp-. I pay 6 bucks a month for my current club and get a CD of my choice every month for that. I pay almost 12 bucks a month for my subscription music. A service that combined the 2 for about 15 bucks a month would be exciting. Thats a service that would sink the competition. Anyway, I get easily distracted. The point is that it is NOT nessasary to DRM files that are not purchased from the Zune Marketplace. It is not Microsofts job to play the role of copyright police for the RIAA. WIFI isn't exciting at all if its just an idea that doesnt really work in a practical sense because of DRM. The other issue is that there is a bait and switch going on. It goes like this: Look at the pretty new device. OOOO! Look at the nifty bells and whistles. OOOO! Now, while your distracted, were going to take your CDs and replace them with... nothing! And charge you more for it than what you were paying before! And control where, when and how you listen to your new nothing! Suckers! Make the noise! Maybe Zune mark II will step up. Damn I almost frenzied myself :)

The wifi sharing feature is the only interesting thing about the zune as far as I can tell, and the only differentiator. If even a clean, DRM-free mp3 can't be permanently sent to a friend, than the feature is worthless. My guess is that MS is banking on their customer's being able to hack the zune and enable hassle-free zune-to-zune transfers. My guess is that most savvy purchasers will make sure that's possible before they buy. I know I will. DRM is not something that many of us will every buy into in any form.

"if you put your CC-licensed music on an iPod, iRiver or iWhatever, you can't share it with ANYONE who uses the same device" --- Actually, that's not entirely true, as I've explained before. The iRiver h3xx supports Host-Mode, or USB to Go, which lets the device work as a USB host. This means it can share information with ANY device that mounts on your computer as a drive - Camera's, MP3Players, Flash-Drives, External Hard-Drives. There are no restrictions, there are no limits. Think it's a nothing feature? You should see the reaction I get when I hook my Nikon into my MP3 player and save files to it - multiple flash cards and nightly photopurges to the laptop are so 2003 :) ==== "That way people could still share their user made recordings ( as long as they posted them on zune marketplace then downloaded to their player from zune marketplace )" --- Ok here's the thing, if I'm a podcaster, I should only have to upload my file once, and build one feed. With iTunes Podcast support the community had to modify how podcasts work to suit Apple. Not only that, Apple doesn't even try to hide the fact that their podcast's are censored, do you imagine that Microsoft won't do the same thing? The reason so many people are upset about the DRM issue is that we want to keep everything neutral. This is something the public is becomming aware of - slowly, locking people into your player isn't fair, and in reality, you just end up pissing them off. Up until now, PMPs have been Apple's domain. But now it's becoming a commodity, not a luxury, people are going to start wondering why it doesn't work with the rest of the world. Lets look at another company that likes restrictive formats - Sony, have any of them been successful? No, why? Because you can buy an equivilant product cheaper, that works with everything. Cowan, iRiver, and Creative know that their strength, is that they just WORK, they don't need their operating systems hacked open so their devices do what the consumer expects them to do. If Microsoft joined that party, it would devestate Apple. === Gratz to Cesar too btw for taking all of this within his stride and keeping this forum open to everyone

Woody56292 said: "ex. Let's say I just downloaded a song form itunes. I use fairplay and take that drm off. Now I have a brand new song and can send it to all my friends for free. So now my 5 friends didn't pay for that song and the company loses 5 dollars. now my 5 friends share with 5 people. $25 lost. etc. etc." That's just not true though, is it? No-one's _lost_ $25. They didn't have that $25 in the first place. If you didn't share the song, iTunes would not have 'gained' $25. He who lights his taper at mine does not diminish my flame.

Cesar, I hope this doesn't sound stupid, but I have a question left that I think many are interested in. If I put a file without DRM from my pc on my Zune and then send it to a friends Zune, it will get the 3 days/3 plays restriction on his device. Now if he moves the file to his pc, it won't have any DRM or restriction applied to it and he can freely play it. Is this correct? So if Zune does NOT apply DRM to un-DRMd files and lets me use this file freely after transfer to a pc, why can't it simply disregard the 3 days/ 3 plays rule for such files? Thanks for your reply!

gotta tell you, that doesn't make me feel any better. You're not changing the files (and somehow we're supposed to be thankful that you're not altering our data) but you're still limiting how we can play them, and for how long. Sorry, no thanks.

I like the file sharing; I understand why we need the DRM. Thanks for the clarification Caesar. I have a couple of questions. If I have a track which has been transferred from another Zune and I want to buy it on CD, burn it and upload it to my Zune, will it recognised I can now play this file again? Or if I get a file 'Zune transferred' which is CC-licensed and it gets restricted by my Zune, Can I then re-upload it again from my computer? Basically I want to know if I can unlock a Zune DRM restricted file if I don’t buy it from the Zune Market place, but from another legitimate source... I assume MS has thought about this and the answer is yes, lets hope :)

Well, the DRM system is cool and all, but the question remains, how do you turn it off? I mean, restricting users in that way must be like shooting yourself in the foot, and I don't think Microsoft wants to lose money on this project. Anyone care to share?

This is interesting, and good news, but I'm curious: Let's say I have a free and clear MP3 that I send to a friend's Zune. He listens to it three times, and likes it. Can he get that file OFF his Zune and onto his PC? Will it then be a normal un-altered, un-protected file? For that matter, I haven't heard anyone say anything about getting files back off your Zune. It's a total pain in the butt with the iPod (not officially supported), and the reverse-sync in WMP11 for PFS devices is tottally simple and awesome. Can we get some word on the Zune-to-PC transfer capabilities?

Cesar: I appreciate your attempt to clarify this point. Unfortunately, your original post prompted a firestorm (which is still going on in places that haven't heard the revised word), and I suspect that MS has lost a number of potential Zune customers as a result. Part of the problem is that it's now clear that there are a bunch of other questions about how the 3 days/3 plays restriction binds in practice, and I suspect that the longer it takes to clarify these points, the worse this problem is going to get. So, to summarize questions from a number of the above posts (in the hopes that this will make it easier for you to answer them, if you can): if A sends song S to B… • …can B then send S to C, or to anyone else (including A)? • …can B copy S to their hard drive (or some other device)? • …if S can’t be played after 3 days/plays, does it automatically delete itself (and just leave the song metadata in the DB) or does it continue to take up space? (this is obviously especially relevant if S can’t be synched to HD, etc.) • …can A send S to B again 3 days later, or can A only ever send S to B once? • …can D send S to B again 3 days later, or can B only ever receive S once? Good luck...

PLEASE ANSWER Joshua O'Madadhain's QUESTIONS

I have a question. If the Zune is going to allow me to transfer music that I ripped from my own CDs to other players, how does Microsoft avoid being sued for contributory copyright infringement. What are they doing that is different from the old Napster that makes them not liable? If I am an independent artist and have no contracts with Microsoft, why does Microsoft believe that they can violate my copyright by enabling a user to make illegal copies to someone else's MP3 player? As the owner of the copyright, I have the sole right to make those decisions, not Microsoft. Is Microsoft claiming that allowing someone to have a copy of my copyrighted content for 3-days or 3-plays is "fair use"? I honestly don't see how the Wi-Fi copying thing can be made legal for content that didn't originate from Microsoft's music store.

I just got turned on to Amazon.com's Unboxed and wanted to start using it once I finde a Portable Media Player I like. It sounds like Zune won't play nice. Maybe Archos is the way to go. Still have to wait and see.

Cesar, your words have become twisted doublespeak. What does this nonsense even mean, that the files are not wrapped in DRM but the limitation is still imposed? Why don't you answer here?

Guys , Guys , Guys , you want no restrictions on the Zune so you can wifi your mates an album for free. Simple. Now DRM is a big sore point for a lot of people, i dont like it , thats why i buy cds and rip to Lame mp3. I wouldnt buy a "record" as a download ,i prefer to own something i can touch. I think microsoft have created a useful , unique feature, it will give someone the chance to hear a tune and decide if they like it - cool. You cant blame microsoft for trying to protect the artists music, they deserve to be paid for their songs.

I just sorta read half the comments and skipped to the bottem but i want to ask one more time to make sure im getting this right. SO THERE IS NO WAY POSSIBLE TO SEND ANY KIND OF MEDIA TO ANOTHER ZUNE W/O DRM ON IT? so even if you get it off a file sharing program like limewire and try to share it it will still be protected? If so thats a bitch since you got it for free anyway.

i think everyone needs to realise something... even if the 3 days / 3 plays rule kicks in on non-DRMed songs... if a friend really wanted it, then what stops the Zune owner from burning it to a CD. so i mean really, the 3 days / 3 plays on unprotected content is reatarded, since someone could get it anyway. i understand on protected content, but on unprotected it shouldn't be used.

Well ive herd that mircosoft devices and OS's are easily hacked. Hopfully some computer wiz will come up with a hack to modify the DRM. This could cause a serious promblem tho if Microsoft(ect.) and artists find out every one is just sorta sharing music and not buying it.

The issue here is not that The wireless transfer is a "useless" feature, but MS has put some very serious limitations on the usefulness of this feature. Sure, other devices do not have this feature but with the 3/3 rule, wireless transfer has now become a gimmick. I understand it's justification for big name songs and such, but this is a real killer for independant artists who want to get their music out...which is what the wireless feature has incredible potential to do. I have a brother that is big into making his own songs, and I would love to be able to share these to other Zune users when I see them. If he wants to share his music freely , I should be able to do it wirelessly as well with no limitions. By having his songs wrapped in DRM (whether its hardware or not), the prospects of the individual being able to keep that song and maybe share it with his friends if he likes it is gone. He will listen to it 3 times, and forget about it because it's not available for download on the net. So much for supporting a sharing musical community.

Your article talks about how files shared via Wi-Fi are restricted. Please clarify if any restrictions apply to songs transferred to Zune from my computer. Assume I live in a world without Wi-Fi :D, and that I only intend to transfer music between Zune and my computer !

Please issue a clear statement regarding restrictions on Non-Wifi transfers

Believe me, this is causing one hell lot of confusion

In a recent interview, Bill Gates said these fine things about DRM:

- "DRM is not where it should be"

- "causes too much pain for legitmate buyers"

- "huge problems"

- "People should just buy a cd and rip it. You are legal then."

Well...then...uhh...sure wish someone with power and influence would do something about it...– b-rad

^^ to answer that question. I am not sure but I don't think you can transfer the song to a computer. (only delete or purchase song through store, but never transfer to pc memory). obviously MS isn't stupid. they aren't going to let you keep a song by taking it off your player and putting it on a computer. However, as I said,

http://www.zunevideoconverter.net

So... how do I delete all of the expired songs off of my Zune. I tried the market place, it was fine, but I'm not planning on continuing to use it.

thx

I bought some ablums using the marketplace and when I sync them to my zune the songs wont play.  I got "this item has expired" message.  Does anyone know how to fix this?